Flaming Ammunition?

**Slon** · 12-04-2004, 18:01

I've been using flaming arrows on targets that refuse to move for a while now. However, I've noticed that while doing more damage, the arrows rarely hit. Are flaming arrows worth using when I have lots of time? When are they worth using more? Same thing regarding flaming Onager ammunition.

**Jonny Dangerously** · 12-04-2004, 20:49

Hi Slon,
I heard that flaming arrows are less accurate but do more damage to unarmoured units. They are also the weapon of choice against seige towers and battering rams since they can set them on fire. Normal arrows should be used on armoured targets.

I also heard that flaming ammo is less accurate for onagers. Rocks are more accurate and appear to do more damage against city walls. I love to use six onagers with flaming ammo as a replacement for archers. They are less accurate than archers but have a longer range. Once they get experienced they can savage an approaching army before they have even closed to attack. Be carefull using flaming ammo during city assaults because it is very easy to burn down half the city by accident. Similarly, if you rally in a seige, and you can find an appropriate place to position your onagers (if your walls aren't too high!) you can batter the army encamped outside whilst any stray flaming rounds won't do too much damage to your own walls. Often you can flip them off without even sending any troops out to fight.

I guess this adds one more issue in the "which walls are best" argument since epic walls kind of rule out onagers as sallying weapons.

**Slon** · 12-05-2004, 00:32

Now that we are talking about walls, do you know if they affect public order? In the description, it said that it makes the citizens feel safe. Do walls have any effect other than during siege assaults and during food storage calculation (while beseiging)?

**Krusader** · 12-05-2004, 01:19

As I recall from a thread, walls doesnt do anything for public order.

And flaming arrows, should be more effective against elephants and cavalry I seem to have read elsewhere. Plus, whenever I got elephants (Seleucids, carthage, parthia) and the enemy has archers, the enemy AI uses flaming arrows against my elephants.

And onagers with flaming ammo is awesome against big blocks of infantry...as long as they got some experience.

**Slon** · 12-05-2004, 04:00

Originally Posted by Krusader

As I recall from a thread, walls doesnt do anything for public order.

And flaming arrows, should be more effective against elephants and cavalry I seem to have read elsewhere. Plus, whenever I got elephants (Seleucids, carthage, parthia) and the enemy has archers, the enemy AI uses flaming arrows against my elephants.

And onagers with flaming ammo is awesome against big blocks of infantry...as long as they got some experience.

I think that the AI uses flaming arrows against the elephants because they frighten the elephants more than normal arrows.

**Red Harvest** · 12-05-2004, 05:21

Flaming arrows are very effective against elephants. Flaming arrows kill morale in regular units as well (way more than they should. Normal arrows are useless against elephants so don't waste the ammo. Javelins are also useless vs. elephants, although jav units get bonuses for melee vs. elephants. I've run tests on medium where a single unit of forest elephants had no trouble surviving the massed fire of 8 roman archer auxilia using normal arrows. The elephants walked up and didn't charge until they were close. They finally routed after meleeing for a short time. It was the combined morale effects of melee, flanking, continued archer fire, and being outnumbered a gazillion to one that finally put them to flight.

**IrishMike** · 12-05-2004, 06:32

I have found flaming arrows extreamly effective against Phalanx formations at medium range and close up and against legions they are so destructive its silly, considering the AI never turtles up. About the Catapult flaming balls, their more like napalm filled giant paintballs and always use them against faction that uses phalanx, I have seen whole units taken out.

**Red Harvest** · 12-05-2004, 08:17

Originally Posted by ColdKnight

I have found flaming arrows extreamly effective against Phalanx formations at medium range and close up and against legions they are so destructive its silly, considering the AI never turtles up. About the Catapult flaming balls, their more like napalm filled giant paintballs and always use them against faction that uses phalanx, I have seen whole units taken out.

I won't defend the effectiveness of onagers (way too powerful when they connect), but I have read of some Roman field artillery slicing up Pontic phalangites. After they were disordered the Roman infantry rushed in to the gaps to finish them off. Note, that the idea is not that the onagers destroyed the enemy, but they created the conditions for the infantry to destroy the enemy.

I hate the flaming arrows.

**Slon** · 12-05-2004, 08:31

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I won't defend the effectiveness of onagers (way too powerful when they connect), but I have read of some Roman field artillery slicing up Pontic phalangites. After they were disordered the Roman infantry rushed in to the gaps to finish them off. Note, that the idea is not that the onagers destroyed the enemy, but they created the conditions for the infantry to destroy the enemy.

I hate the flaming arrows.

The problem with this is that you have to make a fireball connection (rare/inaccurate) in the small time frame after your infantry is near the phalangites and before the phalangites charge your infantry. This time frame is usually too small for the onagers to make a good connection. Plus, you risk hitting your own units. The onagers have such a huge chance of missing critially with those fire pots that I've seen them take out 20 phalanx units in front of them while the target was a medium distance off. I usually just turn them off or order them to attack a faraway unit when the enemy starts to charge. Same thing with archers. If you have silver shield pikemen (or other good phalanxes) in good formation, I found that most of the kills are made by my archers.

**Jonny Dangerously** · 12-05-2004, 15:07

Originally Posted by Krusader

onagers with flaming ammo is awesome against big blocks of infantry...as long as they got some experience.

Absolutely!

Once I’ve got the production facility in place, I usually replace all my archers with onagers. Admittedly, at first they can be amusingly ineffective – with a new army, with zero experience and a low level general they can fire off in every direction missing everything. However, if you position them just behind your infantry line it’s impossible for them to hit friendly units. (They have a minimum range) Furthermore, after a few battles they become a superb section of your army. Once they are experienced and fighting under a decent general their accuracy (combined with their already brilliant range) result in them doing far more damage than archers. I’ve watched with intense glee as an approaching army has been battered into an incoherent rabble by flaming onager ammo, only to route on contact with my main battle line. (If your lucky you can frequently kill the general on approach). Also, an army with 6 onagers can frequently make short work of enemy elephant units. Lastly, your army has the capability of instantly attacking any city, and six onagers can annihilate an army defending a town with crap walls without breaking a sweat. Seriously, I think they are worth the investment and definitely make for exciting battles.

PS Be careful when targetting units to your flanks because onagers set in a row have a tendency to shoot their neighbour in the rear in these circumstances.