The ethics of modding

[Turbo]

Yep, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. The only "responsibility" a modder has to him or herself.



Nope, what I said was that complaining that a mod should somehow be professional in quality when it's made by amateurs who aren't getting paid makes one an "egomaniacly self-centered little cretin". All amateur efforts are going to be beta by definition since the resources of the modder are far, far smaller than the resources of the paid developers who produced the game.

Pointing out flaws and things that don't work can only help the modder improve his work, assuming that's what he wants to do. Pointing out flaws is a good thing; engaging in rants centered around completely unreasonable expectations is not. Dishing out insults to modders - without whom you wouldn't even be here posting, much less enjoying the fruits of their labors - is childishly immature.

Gamers don't get to *expect* anything from modders. What you get is a gift - you don't get to impose your own personal requirements upon that gift. You can either choose to accept it, or choose to reject it. You aren't entitled to a bloody thing, nor do you have any 'rights' when it comes to a mod. That should be self-evident, but apparently there are some gamers out here - a few on this forum - who believe that they've the god-given right to *demand* things from modders. And these people are the "egomaniacly self-centered cretins" I'm referring to. They do nothing to help the modding community in any way, shape or form, and serve only to drive off modders who don't care to listen to their diatribes. Why should I bother releasing what I've done to the community if I'm going to take crap for it? I'd be more inclined to say "to hell with the lot of you" and keep what I've done for myself, and my friends.



It's beta, by definition. How could it possibly be anything else?



My mistake then. Apparently Gaius is a professional developer, since that seems to be the exact same tack taken by CA. Apologies all around - I didn't know Gaius worked for CA.



Other than art or mods making very small changes to a game, in all the time I've been modding for all the games I've dabbled in, I've only seen a "finished and polished product" once in a blue moon. I've seen a number of modders *claim* that their products are "finished and polished", but generally that speaks more to their ego than the actual state of the mod.



No, my point was very simple. If you pay for something, you have the right to expect a finished product. If you're getting it for free, you get what you get and you don't have the right to expect anything at all. If you're getting it for free, the modder doesn't *owe* you anything. He or she may choose to continue improving the mod based upon the comments of users, or just decide he/she is done and move on to something else. As a player, you just have to suck it up and realize what you have in your hands is an act of charity, and like all charity you don't get to demand more of the same because you aren't satisfied with what's been given.

Or I suppose you can, if your mama didn't b!tich-slap any manners into you when you were growing up. But the giver can always say "bite me" and walk away if you decide to act petulant, and what are you possibly going to do about it? Complain? That will accomplish nothing other than to make sure that you don't get anything else in the future, either.

And I can only hope they're proper capitalists who want to make more money on future games, and decide to finish this one up properly so that gamers like myself - who expect a FINISHED product when we give our cash to the person hawking it - will be inclined to buy from them in the future. I could care less for their love so long as their desire to remain in business stays intact.

Max

Hmm. I have always supposed that modders did their work for the love of the game and a desire to contribute to the game's community. This goals usually combine into a zealous desire on the part of the modder to produce a superior product not an inferior product.

Not sure what you are going on about regarding the modders getting paid. It is completely irrelevant to the situation on hand.

One suggestion I can offer to you is for you to tone down on your aggressive responses (b!tch-slapping, etc.). They don't contribute anything.

[Jagger]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Vorbis]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

It's not being unappreciative, but as a modder, you should feel a responsibility to anyone who uses your mod, to make sure that the game is fully functional without major flaws such as crashing. If you don't feel this responsibility, your mod is probably going to be riddled with bugs that you haven't bothered to investigate, test, or try to fix, all of which you should do before releasing it as a "finished" product. I know I do this for my mod, and all changes I (intentionally) make, I test before releasing a new version, now that my mod is no longer in a beta stage, to ensure that whoever uses it will not experience crashes.

Now that doesn't mean it won't be totally bug free, but I can assure you that any new buildings and traits I add won't crash the game, are fully usable, and work as designed. I know because I tested the trait in most ways that can crash the game, and I've played the game specifically to test each modified or new trigger, to see if it works properly. It's not about how big your mod team is (I do everything myself for mine), or getting credit for your mod, or having lots of feedback or whatever, it's about quality, playable mods. And if my mod has a problem with it, if there's something wrong with the game at all, whether it crashes the game or a line of text doesn't display properly, it's not insulting to tell me that the game is messed up (critically, if it's a crashing issue), and it's not being rude or ungrateful because it's MY mistake, I claim my mod works perfectly, and I'm proud of what I've done, so I'm going to go out of my way to fix that problem. And I expect this kind of feedback if someone has an issue with my mod.

If I introduced new bugs in the game without intending to fix them or without extensively checking for errors before each release, I'm not making the game better--I'm making it less stable, less reliable, and more frustrating.

As someone who's made a pretty extensive mod, that's my few cents.

[NaeBlis]

Yes, you're right, the public has the right to inform you of any problems your mod might have. However, this is not what the "RTR project...rant" does. It doesn't provide any positive/constructive criticism (which is the kind you state is acceptable). The problem with RTR, according the starter of that thread is not bug-related, but content-related.

Now the issue here is that its the modder's choice of what content the mod will possess, and it doesn't mean you start up a thread because you don't like something about a particular mod.

[ChaosDrake]

doublepost sorry

[ChaosDrake]

hi all
i must agree what duke john says, im a player not a great modder when i use a mod i want a good mod not crap.
and its right its for the community, made from the community and its for the community.
when some modders think they are tooo awesome and dont like share their wisdom with the other modders then dont call yourself modder, make a company and made games for sale.
the community before rome total war was much better and friendlier too each other.
the modders from medieval total war are great they have answered all questions and when you not understand while you from another country like me they explained it again and "shared" their wisdom with you!

and yes the currently mods are not bad but not the greatest work.
total realism is not so realistic as it says the barbarians in example the horde formation its not real they are barbarians yes but they are not dumb, many of them are disciplined enough to made a square formation.
think about the defeat of the legions from varus in the teutoburger wald!

the good side from total realism is the ZOR system thats a genius idea or from the augmentation pack(total realism too hehe) the new units thats good :) and those domain thing.

pls do not think i will flame anyone!(my english is not so good and i must use the words that i know hehe) i like your works but do not harass the other modders like duke john he is good modder!
and pls forgive me when i have something spelling wrong or i have attacked someone that was not my mh dont know a word for that hehe
and think always we are all in the same boat we are the community !!!!!!!

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

The modding community closeness is definetly not what it was since Romes release, not being rude there but its the truth. For me now there seems to be a race with people to bring out a mod just to have one out. Although a few like the Europa and others are taking its time and mods such as those will be great when they are relased.

I haven't modded Rome for months due to real life commitments(i really hate those ) but when i have released my final super mod i'm going to to work on something which hopefully doesn't tread on anyones toes.

What i will say is that modding whether in a team or singular is bloody hard work. I enjoy constructive criticism but people who just moan about a mod really annoy me, they obviously have not the foggiest idea how much time and effort that goes in from the modders part.

[ChaosDrake]

What i will say is that modding whether in a team or singular is bloody hard work. I enjoy constructive criticism but people who just moan about a mod really annoy me, they obviously have not the foggiest idea how much time and effort that goes in from the modders part.

yes thats true, ive tried it with some smaller modifications add units, add buildings balancing troopstats thats now not so easy like medieval(medieval modding is hard).
too add new citys and provinces like in total realism i cant do that or becoming the idea of making something like the ZOR system, or the DOMAIN thing in aug pack 1.5 .
or the making of new units.

but the godlike thinking and looking down on the others thats annoy me.

i have a question too you BKB do you convert the super mod too RTW?
and can i help you? i learn fast when someone teach me too do that.