Tactics question

[Don Corleone]

I'm playing as the Turks for the first full campaign, Early Hard. I had a question about the following scenario. The Byzantines had an archer unit and a byz inf. unit in Antioch (long story how they got it). Anyway, I invade with 8 units of Turcoman horse, figuring that should be more than enough to take them out. WRONG. The AI actually got pretty smart & sneaky. He put both units on top of a steep mesa like hill (steep slopes on all sides) with woods at the top. I couldn't get close enough to fire on the archers without having the BYZ come ambush me in the woods and vice-versa.

Question: other than what I did, which was manpower very expensive (I'm not proud of my tactics, but a win is a win): I just put all my Turcoman on melee with the archers and took the losses from the Byz Inf until his archers routed, then I skirmished the byz Inf. I took horrible losses and 3 units routed, but I did win at the end of the day. Other than "Bring more appropriate troops next time" does anyone have any suggestions for what I could have done differently?

[Marquis de Said]

You could try to lure the Byz. Infantry out of the woods. Whatever you do, don't go into the woods with Turcoman Horse. Better mounted units have met their fates there against lesser rivals, if you get my drift. Piss the Byz. Infantry off as much as you can. Feign a charge at the BI until it counter-attacks, then quickly withdraw and bring the other TH to shoot them up. With 8 horse archer units you should be able to dance the dance of death around the BI until they're all dead. After that you can have your way with the archers. If the Byz. Inf. get separated from the archers and the archers are shooting at you, send a unit of TH to attack the archers. This way you should lose only one unit (the sacrificial lamb that climbs the hill to "attack" the Byz. Inf. and gets shot by archers) and maybe not even that.

[Marquis de Said]

BTW, I'm currently playing as the Turks (early, expert) as well. It's 1250, the Horde is dead (although their rebel remnants control half the steppes), I'm about 10 years away from getting Janissary Heavy Infantry and raking in a profit of 3000 fl. per turn without any naval trade.

Next I will begin my conquest of Europe!

[ichi]

I probably would have used one TurcoHorse on loose formation to soak up the arrows until the archers ran out, trying as the Marquis said to lure them away from the ByzInf and out into the open where maybe they could be overwhelmed by my entire force. Once the archers were defanged I would have surrounded the ByzInf as much as possible and then shot them up (even in trees they'll take some losses), saving one TurcoHorse with arrows for the final battle (probably the General).

Had this worked I would be facing a somewhat depleted Byz Inf unit and then tried to lure them out - maybe engage them with a depleted TurcoHorse and let them chase that unit out into the open.

At any rate, the key to beating ByzInf is to take advantage of their relatively low morale. In this situation it seems like you could hit them from all sides - units get a morale penalty for beng outnumbered, for having flanks threatened or charged, and most importantly being charged in the rear. Combine those penalties with the one units get for taking arrow fire and those Barnies should fold faster than Superman on laundry day.

You don't say what the valor/morale of the units involved in this scenario are, but my guess is that the ByzInf was probably fairly high valor (3-4 maybe?), which probably made them pretty tough to kill with Turcos straight up.



ichi

[Saracen_Warrior]

Archers shoot jsut as bad when they're in the woods shooting out as they do when out shooting in right. If this is true then i would have just shot at the byz infantry, done some feigning to get them out. Then loaded em up with 224(8 X 28) arrows, then moved on and worried about the archers.

[bretwalda]

Archers shoot jsut as bad when they're in the woods shooting out as they do when out shooting in right. If this is true then i would have just shot at the byz infantry, done some feigning to get them out. Then loaded em up with 224(8 X 28) arrows, then moved on and worried about the archers.

I am not sure that you are saying the same , but I observed, that if my archers are at the edge of a forest (but still covered) can shoot pretty well at other archers in the open, while they are sheltered somewhat.

@Don: Since you have 6 units you can easily keep the enemy in constant move by attacking and withdrawing from different directions. The enemy will tire, moral will go down and what is important: if the archers move they can't shoot. But you can shoot with four units using only two for fake attack. Once they are in the open - as it have been said - they are yours! It may or may not help, its hard to tell without actually seeing their positions - a screenshot would help.

Anyway most of the time you have plenty of time, no need to charge in until you have arrows and the timer is not at the last few minutes.

By the way have you realized that if you are the defender and manage to pull the time all the way, so that the timer is running out the AI will not wait for it to run out but withdraw? Which is strange because sometimes you get to pursue the slow units since the fast ones have withdrawn...

[Don Corleone]

Actually, everyone, I got the answer I was looking for. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but after almost a year of playing, it didn't dawn on me to feint. Even so, does the AI always come follow you when you charge 1/2 way at them? That'd be an amazing trick if it always works that way...


Sir, do we really want to leave our Byzantine Infantry escot? Of course Lieutenant! You saw the way those Turcoman almost charged into us! We have to show them we're not afraid!

[Ironside]

Actually, everyone, I got the answer I was looking for. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but after almost a year of playing, it didn't dawn on me to feint. Even so, does the AI always come follow you when you charge 1/2 way at them? That'd be an amazing trick if it always works that way...


Sir, do we really want to leave our Byzantine Infantry escot? Of course Lieutenant! You saw the way those Turcoman almost charged into us! We have to show them we're not afraid!

The comp always counter-charges (well not always with shirmishers) and never stop that charge by pressing the stop button, so practically yes. It's the only way to hit a non-engaged enemy unit in the back or flanks too.

[HopAlongBunny]

One thing about charging archers: Beware those %^%^*! Trebizond archers!

More than once I've charged cav into some of those and been promptly routed

[Saracen_Warrior]

Yea beware trebizonds. My first muslim campaign as turkey i made this mistake. Horse archers should easily kill ground archers right. Not these guys. I sent my horse archers charging at trebizonds, then turned my attention elsewhere. When i turned back my horsies had routed. I watched the replay and saw they hadn't been flanked or anything. THen i looked up the stats on these trebizond guys.

Charge 1 Attack 3 Defence –2 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2 Cost 275 Support cost 52

compared to my turcomen horses
Charge 2 Attack 1 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 9, 24, 26 Morale –1 Cost 300 Support cost 40

[Saracen_Warrior]

Now i never send horse archers at anything

[ichi]

I consider exploiting the charge - countercharge code to be a Minor Cheeze Move.

In a real fight the enemy unit would probably stop and not keep chasing a much faster unit, out of the safety of the woods and into and area where it is vulnerable.

So when I see that this code has been activated I usually hit the unit before withdrawing, and start hitting it with the flankers.

Saracen build those Turcos where they can get valor/morale bonuses, give them a weapons upgrade (and an armor upgrade if you plan on fighting in Europe or the Steppes) and use their speed as flankers. You'll be surprised how well a pumped up TurcoHorse will do when it hits a ByzInf in the rear.



ichi

[Saracen_Warrior]

Yea, i never used to build armor upgrades. But, lately ive been trying that approach. I didnt think I'd notice any difference, but units like ghazi seem to come back with more men after I use em, as opposed to no one coming back.

[ichi]

Yea, i never used to build armor upgrades. But, lately ive been trying that approach. I didnt think I'd notice any difference, but units like ghazi seem to come back with more men after I use em, as opposed to no one coming back.

Ghazis have a high attack and low defense stats, and since armor adds 1 to defense these units are greatly improved by armor - but of course it adds to fatigue so I try to keep a few provinces armorer-free to produce desert troops.

ichi