Comparison of Support from CA

[baz]

Please find attached a screenshot from the forum of a game called "Football Manager 2005"

This game was released on the 5th November and not unlike R:TW it had a lot of bugs, although there were no real showstoppers. After release there was a forum opened called "5.0.0 bugs" (see screen pic). In this forum a SI Tester (si games is the equalivalent to CA) has collected all the bugs and has even updated the forum with what has been addressed in the upcoming patch. This is what i call support! The forum is moderated by Testers (strictly as well) who replicate the bugs and report them to the developers when necessary.

If we compare this to CA ...
Firstly, the community had to collect the bugs themselves with R:TW! Testers from CA are no where in sight. I can only assume that from the few rare "dev" appearances here at the org and also the state of the game at release, that there are no testers only devs who test for ten mins before the game goes GOLD. so i guess that explains why CA could not take this route ;)

Secondly, it has been nearly two months since the release of the R:TW full game and so far all we have had is "thank you" for the list of bugs we submitted. In comparison "Football Manager" has been out for 11 days and already they have made this much progress. By progress i mean they have relayed relevent information about the up and coming patch to the community. Again this is what i call support.

to finish matters off, astonishingly this game has a FULLY functional MULTI PLAYER element! This is not a Scam!

Just thought i would let you see how different the same scenario can be with a different company..



apologies for the large file size but i wanted you to be able to read the text.

EDIT:Did not write this very well but Eng vs Spain is about to kick off so ...

Baz

[Dionysus9]

its nice to see that at least one company in the software industry understand the concepts of customer support and quality control.

too bad they are in the extreme minority.

[Muneyoshi]

Not to mention the support the creators give at the forums themselves. And I dont mean theirs one account that they post one or two times a day in, I mean everybody has their own account and post countless times a day. Very well supported, if CA would do half of what SI do I would think it was very good support.

Btw Barry, what you think of FM?

[allanphillips]

Cyanide are another rare software company that look after their customers. Their game Chaos League is not a huge seller, yet they keep in touch via the forums and do their best to fix bugs as soon as possible after they are reported. So far they have released 7 patches and the game is now very stable and bug free.

By the way you should try it - it's a great fusion of RTS and fantasy sports - the only one of its kind and with a thriving community thanks to the developers support. I bought this after the disappointment of RTW and I love it!

More info and a demo at www.chaosleaguegame.com. Only £11.99 delivered (UK) on www.play.com

[CBR]

A recent post made by Obake Date on .Com

Alright kids, I'm going to try and provide a little bit of history here that should give you some perspective.

5 years ago (before the release of Shogun:TotalWar), the developers from Creative Assembly were quite active in the community (which at that point consisted of the forums at the org and about 200 patrons). A lot of the same things that we see now were going on back then as well. There were discussions over how people thought that CA should implement this feature or that feature. There were those patrons who were the "fanboy's" and there were also the "flamers", but in general life was pretty good and there were some serious heavy hitters from CA that were participating.

CA however was a little bit too open with their information, and when they announced that they were going to have to delay the release of the game for 6 months because they wanted to make sure it was done right, they had to endure a torrent of flaming the likes of which no-one should ever have to deal with. They did though for the most part. Some of the heavy hitters said "the heck with this" and have never come back. Things eventually settled down though as most people realized that would in fact rather wait an extra six months instead of getting a buggy game.

Then CA announced that they weren't going to be able to get the MP campaign working for the release and were dropping it from the feature set. Again, another "storm" erupted. This type of behavior continued, and actually got worse after the demo was released as everyone started spouting off their opinion about what they liked about it, and more often what they didn't like.

The truth is that the more information Creative Assembly provided to the community about what they were doing and where things stood, the more abuse they ended up taking from the community if even one thing deviated from what they had said. Given that the software development process is pretty much all about "change" they were screwed (name one programmer who's EVER written bug free code other than "Hello World"). Things got so bad that CA refused to take part in the community at all for about 6 months. When they did start to come back, they had learned their lesson the hard way, and would only give out the most general of information. Anyone who's been around since the Shogun days will remember "Two Weeks".

Point being, the voices of the community have changed, but our song remains the same. If CA were to provide some type of list that mentions what was being looked at, or what had been done they would be flamed by those who didn't get THEIR pet peeve addressed. Then they'd get flamed by those who wanted the patch NOW (which they get anyway). CA is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They have made a conscious decision to make their relationship with the community as hassle free to them as possible (as far as I can tell). You may not like the end result of that decision (I know I'd like more participation and information), but it's the reality that we are all faced with.

I realize that many of you are thinking "I wasn't here then, it's not my fault so why should I be punished for what happened then". The point is that you're all singing the same tune that CA and the staff here have been dealing with for years. It doesn't make any of the patrons here right or wrong in how you feel. It's just what we've been dealing with every day, and what you consider a lack of feedback is in truth the most effective way to keep the community from degenerating into something on the order of the AOE forums, or Battle.net

No matter what happens, there is always going to be that percentage of any given community that could care less about being civil, or being able to present their issues in a mature manner. Those people are more interested in causing problems that they are in solving them. Other parts of the community aren't happy unless they have SOMETHING to complain about, and that's all that they do. Sorry guys, but CA doesn't need the grief, and quite frankly neither does the staff.

There are legitimate bugs with Rome, and as many of these bugs as CAN be fixed WILL be fixed within the timeframe available. Telling you that CA is working on this or that, and what has been done is just opening up the door for those who will say "well what about THIS bug, or THAT issue", or "you've dealt with MY issue, why can't I have it NOW".

Even if Creative Assembly were to say "the patch will be done in a couple of weeks", how many of you would start complaining that it wasn't ready for download on day 13? And what if another issue cropped up in testing that delayed release for a week. Even if they said so, how much complaining do you think there would be about "yet another delay" and how much more "CA suxxorz" posts do you think we'd see.

I know that most of you reading this thread honestly believe that it would be far less than what we are seeing now. I'm telling you from 4+ years of experience that you are wrong. We would see SIGNIFICANTLY more complaints and flames than we do now.

That's life folks. So like Mike said, take the blue pill, and relax. The patch will be here when it's done! ;)

[Dionysus9]

Thats a good post by Obake and it explains a lot, but I don't think it excuses anything.

The creative process will always be subject to criticism, constructive or otherwise, and the manufacturers of a product will also be subject to criticism.

Dealing with criticism is just part of business, especially in an industry where every product must be a "new creations."

To hide in your shell in fear of criticism or dialog with the end purchaser is tantamount to suicide. Only very succesfull artists (like Andy Warhol) can still sell their product with the ostrich approach.

I think CA needs to grow some thick skin and face/discuss the criticism they might receive. The introspection that is necessary to do that will enhance the creative process and result in a better game.

[Clips]

At least now they have told our community straight on that link found in .net about CA now workign on everything listed in our petition, it may ne until end of January but looking at that screeny, it gives me hope that they may actually do a good job and sort out these bugs. Then your get all us legends in the lobby to sort out what i hear is mostly morons atm.

Im in Rome some nights but bugs frustrate me, so ever need me in VI or forums most of time ^^

[Aelwyn]

I think CA needs to grow some thick skin and face/discuss the criticism they might receive.

Or, hire someone with this thick skin to deal with it and report back to them with the constructive feedback.

I have a lot of experience with this. And....I need a new job.....

[ElmarkOFear]

I am hopeful that the patch will address some of my personal "most-pressing" issues:

LOBBY
------
Private Chat Rooms (Passworded)
Added permanent Ban function
Added permanent Ignore function
Elimination of the ability to use any name when logging in to MP lobby.
More game info. in the game listing.
Ability to see who is in game and who is in lobby (Greyed out names like in MTW or something to that effect)
Ability of host to determine who has not hit the ready button after army selection has been completed by everyone else.

GAME
-----
Accurate Replay function
Added logfile function
Elimination of the ability to "cheat"
Quicker in game chat (Use T for all, Y for team)
Elimination of DeSynch problems
4v4 added back into play
Decrease in lag and drops (better online/network code)
Abillity to play with same faction as your teammates or opponents.

WISH LIST
----------
Map Editor
Ability to see who is in what games in the MP lobby without having to join the game.

If most of these items are addressed, you will probably see me more often in the RTW MP lobby. I might even write a story about my experiences as an RTW noobie-type person! Might even be so happy as to play my first TW Single player campaign game! (Don't hold your breath, MP is my vice!)

[Sp00n]

I still cant tell you how dissapointed I am by Romes MP aspect and I have no faith that they will get it to anywhere near the type of standard of thier last 2 releases with 1 patch its needs about 4.

I now play Eve online again which is as you all know a monthly payment game, but they recently added a free expansion to Eve which was very buggy on release some 2 weeks ago since then its been vurtually cured by patches and while it was bad the developers released a statement saying that they were aware of all the problems with the add-on and were working to sort them out as soon as possible, CA could at least of extended that type of courtesy before the petition was sent to them as they must have known on release that Rome was an unfinished game and the reviews in games Magazines wernt realistic the writers need to get out of CA,s backsides and write reviews in accordance to how the game plays not its looks compared to MTW (it only improves on the campaign map).

Ive enjoyed so much being part of this community for the last 5 years, but apart from playing MTW and the mods for it I cant see myself returning to Rome, its a complete mess online and 1 patch wont sort out the numerous problems it has IMO I wont even consider returning unless they sort out the army movement problems.

So many friends have already left, I dont want a list of what they might be doing it would just be nice to hear something from time to time of which they dont seem capable of. How hard is it to post saying something like that.

MizuSp00n

[ElmarkOFear]

I am with you on that Spoon. I still won't care for RTW's MP compared to STW and MTW, but if some of my old friends are playing it, I will stop by every now and then to get a game in. Though, I will never play it as much as STW or MTW.

I was always more interested in the social aspect of the TW MP experience than anything else. The horrible MP lobby, the lack of features, and the terrible in-game chat, ruined this and were what made me decide to stop playing RTW MP.

[Puzz3D]

The Shogun issued a statement a few days ago: The Patch, and remember Mike B said 22 programmers out of 74 were working on the patch. It sounds like a major effort to me. You can see by the Shogun's statement that CA only gets one chance to patch. They have done well in the past with that one opportunity. I wouldn't take the lack of several smaller patches as a sign that the game can't be brought up to a good standard of play.

[ElmarkOFear]

That is impressive and may go a long way in restoring the MP community's faith in CA's willingness & ability to provide a decent MP experience. I have my fingers crossed.

[LestaT]

Can this be done ?

1. Game like RPG style multiplayer.
a) Choose a tribe/faction, start as sargeant maybe.
b) Choose 'profession' to command (archers/cavalry etc)

2. Roam from town to town (and cities) gathering allies or getting 'mission'
from Governors (to eliminate rebels etc) using RPG style map (?)

3. More mission successfully concluded recieved more money to upgrade or
add troops.

4. Battles are fought on battle map like Single Player version.

5. After certain level maybe get promoted to captain and can 'hire/command'
other type of unit (so now command maybe sword & archer).

6. Chatroom replace diplomat type speeces where aliiances can be forged.

7. Bribe can also be included to maybe 'backstab' ally during battle with other
faction.

Well, this is a basic idea and I'm not really sure where to put this post actually. Feel free to comment or to add suggestion.

[Puzz3D]

Can this be done ?

1. Game like RPG style multiplayer.
a) Choose a tribe/faction, start as sargeant maybe.
b) Choose 'profession' to command (archers/cavalry etc)

2. Roam from town to town (and cities) gathering allies or getting 'mission'
from Governors (to eliminate rebels etc) using RPG style map (?)

3. More mission successfully concluded recieved more money to upgrade or
add troops.

I suppose it could be done, but I hope it isn't done. That type of game has a snowball effect where after a while you are practically unbeatable. STW, MTW and RTW multiplayer is set up so that ideally you go to the battlefield with the same combat power as your opponent every time. The idea is that you win if you play better, and not because you have a stronger army. The introduction of many unit types in MTW and now RTW that are not properly cost balanced has meant you have to figure out the most cost efficient units so as not to be at a disadvantage.

[Sp00n]

After readin Shoguns post lets hope the patch will be worth the wait, I cant help getting the feeling of deja vu though as wasnt Rome going to also be worth the wait.
Lets hope im wrong as I love the Total wars games as much as anyone.

Please get it right this time CA as I doubt the community will give you another chance, we dont want to have to wait further for an addon that only cures the original game.

MizuSp00n

[Tomisama]

Maybe to give hope for a proper fix, a little reinforcement.

At least to my observation:

The shelves are full of Rome boxes that don’t seem to be moving, even in the Christmas rush!

And, direct competition is hot on their heels (Magitech and Slitherine).

They really do have to get it right this time…

[baz]

Thanks for posting that CBR, Obake is a wise man. I appreciate that there are some great arguments on why CA are not as forthcoming as they could be .. the point is here that there are some issues that need to be shared with the community as it is in the interest of the the development for the game. There should clever enough to censor what we are told and what we are not, and they should also be clever enough to realise we need to be told something.

The fact that CA published possible developments that were interpreted, in the end, as false promises because they did not work out was obviously a massive error, and i fully agree we should not be told anything that is not certain. What i do not understand is that they are missing out on a huge amount of feedback because somebody did not realise we only need to know so much .. getting constructive feedback from people who play for thousands of hours is better than any testing that is possible in house. In contrast at SI Games the forum is speciafically called "BUGS", there is a thread at the top, which clearly states that your thread will be closed/deleted if it is a repeat or is not actually a bug. the forum is strict and accepts no flaming/debating. It just simply identifies bugs and helps the developers to re create them in their debugging environment, which the patrons accept. This way the development team is able use the feedback from users and identify problems by letting the users send them the effected matches/careers (3d battles/campaigns for TW) via an FTP server where necessary.

My main point here is that the only reason CA have got any constructive feedback is because we got off our asses to provide it for them, without any encouragement whatsoever. What is really stopping them from opening a "bugs" forum and policing it like they do at SI games. Surely any business man can see that this is in the benefit of both parties, both consumer and creator! The consumer gets a little insight into the actual state of certain problems and the creator gets a greater understanding of what needs to be fixed.

I can not see any disadvantages to this strategy, can you? everybody is a winner!

[Shahed]

...

[Puzz3D]

.. the point is here that there are some issues that need to be shared with the community as it is in the interest of the the development for the game.

I'm not sure which issues you are referring to, but CA isn't about to develop their game in a public forum. They read the forums, and have made that general statement about fixing as many of the reported problems as they can in one patch. Apparently, only one patch is to be done because the patching process takes a long time to complete. A bug forum would have been good to have because the bug threads became too long to read after a while, and, maybe if the bugs were nicely tabulated as they are in that example you posted, someone from CA would check off things as they got fixed.

Maybe this game is too ambitious, and beyond the scope of the investment. It didn't help multiplayer that Activision changed the GameSpy software shortly before RTW was released. You can probably get all the major bugs resolved in a single patch, but I don't see how the gameplay can be brought to the level desired by the older community members in a single patch. You are always going to have something less than you want in this regard with the limited patching policy, and there is no consensus in the community on what that gameplay should be anyway.

[baz]

When i say issues that need to be shared i am talking about general responses to the problems we find. Lets pretend that somebody posted a bug in R:TW in the forum but unfortunately it was not explained very well, perhaps english is not the primary language of that individual .. How does that person know he is being listened to ...?

At SI games a tester will simply say "Thank you, this is noted" to acknowledge that the thread has been looked at and will also go into further detail if needed to recreate the bug for themselves. This demonstrates that this has been looked into and keeps the consumer happy. This attitude is extremely helpful because it also prevents future rants about the same topic by other patrons. At present you get no acknowledgement whatsoever from anybody when you post a thread, all you can do is pray that the CA people who apparently look at the forums actually took the time to investigate. My point is that CA are not helping themselves, all i am talking about is a bit of dialoque with the company, not for them to develop the game on the forums.

I agree gameplay is an unsolved mystery, but how can we ever be expected to agree upon "a gameplay" when we have spent the first three months of release complaining about issues that could be dealt with far more efficiently. Just take a look at the threads here and see how many discussions there are regarding gameplay!

My suggestion would be to open a "bugs" forum at .com and employ several moderators to acknowledge threads and then pass information onto the developers via someone like "The Shogun". Then the moderators can update the threads with the progress on that issue that has come back from CA via "The Shogun". The bug investigators (made up role name) will get the added work of having to reply to each bug request with details but they will also gain an advantage by getting all the bugs on plates in the first place. Obviously CA can be cautious in their feedback but i am sure they would be capable of that. Would it be that hard to implement? again i say it but i think everyone would be a winner and more people would be discussing tactics here not ripping the game to pieces.

Unfortunately to see the SI games bugs forum you have to register but i do suggest you go see how it is run as it is hard to describe, how bad can it be if they are able to release a patch in under a month after initial release!

This game is ambitious and at the moment perhaps too much so, but i am a firm believer in if you dont give something the best possible chance of sucess then you are not going to get the best possible results!

[Sp00n]

The only thing ambitious about this game is the graphics the basic gameplay they have done twice before and the updated campaign map they copied from Civ 3.
They messed up the 3d battle side of the game badly compared to previous versions (apart from the graphics) and subsequently they messed up MP too and I hope they do read these forums as they claim too because multiplayer is terrible and shouldnt have been released in its current state.

MizuSp00n

[Orda Khan]

There is one thing in this life of which there is certain guarantee. People will let you down.

CA have certainly let us down, they have also let themselves down. I have given up expecting some kind of 'miracle cure' patch because I honestly don't see it happening. We sent a petition with over 400 names on it to CA, perhaps we could expect some response but sadly one only needs to log on to RTW MP lobby to find that people obviously don't find the game to be that bad. I asked in the 'petition thread' how many of the signataries were actually playing RTW MP, there are quite a few, I've seen them. If we are going to moan and winge about the state of MP and then proceed to play it anyway, the only response I would expect from CA is " Shut up you load of whiners and go buy the expansion pack! "

.......Orda

[Puzz3D]

A bug forum seems like a very good idea even if CA doesn't comment on specific bugs, and I don't think it has to be at .com. However, someone would have to moderate it and delete posts that are not bug reports. I'm not so concerned that CA doesn't respond to individuals, but they might be missing important bug posts because they are mixed in with all kinds of other non-bug issues. The bug threads became too long to read, and had posts in them that weren't bug reports.

Even if RTW was bug free, this community cannot agree on what it wants for a gameplay. On top of that, the people who post represent a small percentage of the people who play the game. In the end, if the gameplay doesn't suit me I'm not going to get angy or depressed about it. I simply won't play it. It wouldn't be the first time I wasted $40, and it won't be the last.

[ichi]

Even if RTW was bug free, this community cannot agree on what it wants for a gameplay. On top of that, the people who post represent a small percentage of the people who play the game. In the end, if the gameplay doesn't suit me I'm not going to get angy or depressed about it. I simply won't play it. It wouldn't be the first time I wasted $40, and it won't be the last.

Right on Yuuki

ichi

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Some games got forums for bugs... Looking at the only other company I buy game from;

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...splay.php?f=65

Post are looked at and then the title is edited so that paradox knows if it's BUG?, NEW BUG, KNOWN BUG, BUG FIXED in 1.0X, WAD, or anything else.

Paradox also got a dual closed beta / open beta system. Usually they start with close beta, and later in patch development they open the beta so as to get player's input on balance, the way some feature works, etc...

Some of the points spark some hot debate, and eventuallly Paradox do as they see fit.

But they also got a very mature community. As Yuuki pointed out; there is no consensus on what gameplay we want.

Louis,

[Puzz3D]

EU 2 has been out for 3 years right? In that time, Parodox has fixed about 90 bugs with 6 patches, and there are still about 80 bugs unfixed. It's my understanding that Paradox is one of the best companies for fixing bugs, and yet they still have 80 outstanding bugs after 3 years.