Did Stalin plan to steamroll Europe in 1941?

[Rosacrux redux]

I tend to believe that Stalin would eventually make his mover westward, but not earlier than 1944. The geopolitical buildup of the world at that time (with the "capitalist" side fragmented and at war with each other, and with the Germans having sweeped over Europe) was favoring an USSR invasion, but they lacked the sheer power to do so (especially in the offensive - the lessons taken by the Soviet-Finnish war were quite fresh too). He knew though all too well that the tenderness with Germany could not last forever - and that he would've eventually to face them. But he didn't expect that before 1943 at worst - and that's why Barbarossa caught him completely off guard.

Stalin was preparing an aggressive for the somewhat distant future but I seriously doubt he would've gone as far as taking "the whole of Europe". I assume he would aim for the countries he got post WW too (eastern Europe) and perhaps a little more.

[SwordsMaster]

YES. Stalin was preparing an invasion, actually when the germans turned his attack to russia, as I have already said in the Hitler therad, it was Hitlers only chance to defeat Russia withoug engaging in defensive battles, Most of the heavy military equipment was already on the border, artillery, tanks, most of the airforce. Everything except the soldiers, most of them were making their way to the front when the germans attacked.

So, despite the fact that the numbers of soldiers were similar, the germans destroyed/captured most of the heavy weaponry right in the first few days, and once the soldiers were mobilized, the technology available was much lower than the amout available to the germans. During the first weeks of war, destroying 1 german tank was a glorious achievement, as the means available were hand rifles and machine guns, and no heavy specialized weaponry.

BTW, the info is based on Victor Suvorov and Ivan Kolos.

[The_Emperor]

Stalin was a shrewd operator.

But it is known though from statements by his Grandson that Stalin viewed the treaty as "buying time to defend the motherland"...

It seems clear that he was planning to deal with Nazi Germany but was not yet ready to do so and so played for time with the non-agression pact.

I think Stalin would have continued on through Europe after Germany was defeated. This is because of the fact that during the civil war that followed the October revolution, western nations sent forces in to support the "White Russians" against the "Reds". This gave Lenin and Stalin a big mistrust of the west as they though that they would do everything it could and embrace any ally to defeat Communism...

If Hitler didn't attack and was later defeated by a prepared and agressive USSR, it seems probable that Stalin would have pushed onwards into France and so on, claiming the mantle of "Liberator" from the remnants of the scattered German occupation army, and setting up local Communist regimes much like the Eastern Bloc... there would have been little military resistance in the West after Germany itself fell, and any nationalist rebellions following any fall of Germany would have been outgunned.

At any rate, when the victorious Allies met in Berlin one of the representatives approached Stalin and Congratulated him saying, "it must be good after all of this to be standing in Berlin"

Stalin then coldly replied... "Tsar Alexander got to Paris".

[SwordsMaster]

Stalin then coldly replied... "Tsar Alexander got to Paris"

Answer: Are you playing to be the "tough guy"?

I have to say its a good answer tho.

[The_Emperor]

Answer: Are you playing to be the "tough guy"?

I have to say its a good answer tho.

Well next time we track down someone who has ordered the deaths of over 21 Million people and conquered half of Europe, you can ask him that...

[Oleander Ardens]

Nice Replays

It may be interesting to expand Swordmasters point that in this first critical days the Soviets had a far larger amount of tanks, over 10000 to maybe 3000 germans, far more artillery and more fighters than the germans , although the actual number of men was quite similar or leaned toward the german side depending on which author one depends. Aleksander Semenovic Orlov points out however that many of this ressources coud not be fully used, as the logistic of the Red Army and the training let was not up to the job.


The coordination of the different branches (tanks, infantry, artillery and airforce) was cleary a weak point in Finland as the great lack of capable officers, due to the Stalinist terror; I hardly think that even with it's hefty superiorty in heavy gear it could have rolled over the german army in this state.

So while with a mobilization the Soviet army would have had in very few time far more men on the front than the Germans could ever hope to have, the lack of training made IMHO a quick strike in 1941 quite unlikely.

A

What still does stun me is the huge number of paratroopers in the RedArmy; even in official armylist one can see just how many Para-divisions were later regrouped into Guard-infantry divisions. How do you comment that? Is it a clear sign of a long term strategic goal?

BTW, an article which has as all taken with a . of salt
...

http://www.amersol.edu.pe/_dmunro/ib/articles/ww2_6.htm

Cheers
OA

[SwordsMaster]

See, the problem with most capable and experienced officers was that they learned their jobs in Germany as Russia was destroyed after the civil war. That immediately made them suspicious to Stalins eyes and many were killed, and many others locked up in concentration camps far from the action. Until Stalingrad was besieged. After that everything was thrown against the germans.

About the paramilitary: Making an educated guess, did you know that in the Red army, criminals or deserters were formed into special "death battallions". They were thrown at the enemy the first, had no rights to complain, and took the hardest of the battles. They were disposable in one word. If you demonstrated your value in the death battallion, you could get transferred into a "normal", line one. I´m guessing that you might be referring to those when you talk about paratroopers.

[Oleander Ardens]

Hehe no Swordsmaster, thought about the Para's hopping down from airplanes

If you once get a full official list of the Red-Army before and during the War you will be hugly impressed by the huge number of "Guard" para. divisions, considered to be the elite troops of the Soviet army. IRRC I counted at least 8 Guard parachuters and 8 normal ones, but I will doulblecheck and bring the reference...

I agree with you that many many of the best officers which were in contact with the German Reichswher were executed or died in the Gulags, harmstringing the Soviet military in this critical phases...

Cheers
OA