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Thread: Huge Units = Big Difference
Having completed a vanilla Brutii Campaign I was impressed with the game but felt it lacked the final polish of its predecessors.
But having read about the Huge unit option I decided to have another go this time playing the newly unlocked Egypt whose chariots had impressed my Roman armies so much. But I also decided to up the video options to Huge Units.
Wow! What a difference. Suddenly armies really are hard to deploy and manoeuvre and those brilliant blitzkrieg attacks I used in the first campaign now need careful forward planning to allow time for the troops to form up.
Soon after the start of the campaign my trust and my alliance with the Seleucid Empire was betrayed by an ill conceived attempt to blockade my trade out of Salamis. The Seleucid ships that were sent on such a foolish mission now decorate the bottom on the Mediterranean.
But this was not enough, I was determined to teach these backstabbers a real lesson and at the same time take the opportunity to expand the borders of my own empire.
So a hastily raised army of 1,886 men under command of Pasebakhean Philopater (3 stars) and a veteran of the Judean uprising descended upon the Seleucid controlled city of Damascus.
Damascus was held by a Seleucid Army of 1,559 men mostly philos but with several hundred cavalry and 30 mercenary elephants. Pasebakheans army was mostly Eastern and Arab mercenaries with a small core of Nubian spearmen, 240 Desert Cavalry and a large force of slingers.
The battle opened with the a massive missile bombardment of the Seleucids guarding the city gates. Damascus only had wooden walls and so the arrows from the Arabian Horse Archers and the shot from my slingers rained down on their Phalanx formations in a deadly stream. The road behind the city wall was soon choked with Seleucid dead and, into this chaos they sent their only missile unit, 30 Elephants which caused total mayhem stomping back and forth through their own infantry whilst only doing minor damage to my slingers.
Eventually, the AI seemed to give up and withdrew from the walls leaving the piles of their dead to guard the gate alone.
At this point I sent forward my rams with two massive units of Eastern Infantry, one to breach the gates and the other the wall opposite the secondary street leading to the city centre.
Several counter-attacks by the Seleucids were easily beaten back by missile fire and only added to the carpet of bodies behind the walls.
At this point I thought the battle was more or less over bar the run to the city centre. This had always been the case in the past.
However, I had a rude surprise awaiting me for as my two huge Eastern infantry formations entered the city for the planned drive on the city centre the Seleucids launched a well timed counter attack. A large phalanx emerged from the secondary road and turned to attack the Eastern infantry entering the city through the gate.
I laughed at their stupidity for in attacking this unit they had exposed not just their flank but their rear to my Eastern Infantry entering through the breached wall behind them. In a masterly move I ordered a deadly pincer movement expecting to reap an easy victory and remove one more Seleucid unit from the enemies order of battle.
Not so, too late I realised the the enemy had planned for this move and even as my Eastern Infantry closed on the rear of their phalanx they in turn were hit in the flank and rear first by a massive force of Light Lancers and then by their 30 elephants.
In desperation I ordered forward my Nubian Spearmen to deal with the cavalry and my mercenaries peltasts to deal with the Elephants. But their was no room to deploy and so instead of helping they merely pressed in on the rear of the Eastern Infantry pushing their comrades onto the enemies pikes and increasing the slaughter.
The Eastern Infantry were slaughtered and broke jamming the gate in an attempt to flee the city and the enemy elephants were now in amongst the Peltasts who unable to escape due to the panic at the gate behind then were stomped to death in the street. The Nubians finally arrived after it was all over and managed to stabilize the situation just inside the breach and I finally managed to drive off the enemy Elephants with a costly charge by my Desert Cavalry.
Almost half my army had now dissolved and victory now looked far less certain. A more cautious advance by the Nubians began driving the enemy back along the secondary road, whilst my final unit of Eastern Infantry were ordered to move down the main road to take the city centre.
I must admit I lost track of the Eastern Infantry's progress at this time as I was carefully micro-managing the Nubian's in their slow pursuit up the secondary road. I suspect they were set upon by the enemy generals bodyguard for the next thing I knew they were broken and fleeing for the hills. Now I the Nubian spearmen were the only heavy infantry remaining in my army and they were committed to the wrong road. I was therefore forced to commit my Arab Cavalry to counter the enemy generals counter attack on the main road or risk having them sweep round and take my spearmen in the rear.
It seemed to work for a while, the enemy general was killed and the Arabian Cavalry were in the city centre mixing it with the dregs of the Seleucid routers. I eagerly awaited the appearance of the victory flag.
Not so again, suddenly my mercenary cavalry were in full flight and once again the main road was wide open to the city gates. This time it was the elephants that had returned from what I thought was uncontrolled rout to destroy the bulk of my cavalry.
I gritted my teeth and pressed forward with my spearmen along the secondary road ordering the remnants of my slingers and a few surviving Eastern Infantry who had managed to rally to keep the elephants at bay.
Fortunately, with their general dead the Seleucids had lost their resolve and I was able to slowly drive them back to the city centre with the intention of finishing them off with a hail of slingshot.
This plan worked up to a point, although the enemy had a final card up their sleeve in the form of a massive unit of peasants. I had more or less ignored these as they were normally rubbish and easily dealt with. However, in the huge numbers that existed in the city centre they took on a new menace descending on my small unit of 80 surviving Eastern Infantry and my slingers and doing considerable damage before being driven off.
Finally, the city centre was secure and the flag was counting down. I had settled down to count the cost only to see the flag disappear as 3 surviving elephants emerged from a side street and charged the city centre scattering my slingers and routing my 60 odd surviving Eastern Infantry.
There was no way I was going to lose this battle because of three stupid elephants and so I brought forward my generals chariot bodyguard, rallied my slingers and began pelting the beasts with everything I could throw at them.
It took a long while but eventually I chased them out of the city gates and killed the last one just outside the walls.
Phew! At last the victory screen. But little was left of Pasebakhean's proud army. 807 men reported for duty the next day out of 1,886. Only 146 of out of the 720 Eastern Infantry hired for the campaign remain and only 16 peltasts survived the disaster with the elephants.
The huge size of the units hinders the ability to use combined/mixed forces so that the 'rock/paper/scissors' concepts become much more critical and mistakes are a lot more difficult to correct.
I think this was the most challenging battle I have fought since starting with RTW but I suspect it will not be the last. Damascus is mine but the real prize is Antioch and that is guarded by two massive Seleucid armies and I have little money now to hire more mercenaries.
But having read about the Huge unit option I decided to have another go this time playing the newly unlocked Egypt whose chariots had impressed my Roman armies so much. But I also decided to up the video options to Huge Units.
Wow! What a difference. Suddenly armies really are hard to deploy and manoeuvre and those brilliant blitzkrieg attacks I used in the first campaign now need careful forward planning to allow time for the troops to form up.
Soon after the start of the campaign my trust and my alliance with the Seleucid Empire was betrayed by an ill conceived attempt to blockade my trade out of Salamis. The Seleucid ships that were sent on such a foolish mission now decorate the bottom on the Mediterranean.
But this was not enough, I was determined to teach these backstabbers a real lesson and at the same time take the opportunity to expand the borders of my own empire.
So a hastily raised army of 1,886 men under command of Pasebakhean Philopater (3 stars) and a veteran of the Judean uprising descended upon the Seleucid controlled city of Damascus.
Damascus was held by a Seleucid Army of 1,559 men mostly philos but with several hundred cavalry and 30 mercenary elephants. Pasebakheans army was mostly Eastern and Arab mercenaries with a small core of Nubian spearmen, 240 Desert Cavalry and a large force of slingers.
The battle opened with the a massive missile bombardment of the Seleucids guarding the city gates. Damascus only had wooden walls and so the arrows from the Arabian Horse Archers and the shot from my slingers rained down on their Phalanx formations in a deadly stream. The road behind the city wall was soon choked with Seleucid dead and, into this chaos they sent their only missile unit, 30 Elephants which caused total mayhem stomping back and forth through their own infantry whilst only doing minor damage to my slingers.
Eventually, the AI seemed to give up and withdrew from the walls leaving the piles of their dead to guard the gate alone.
At this point I sent forward my rams with two massive units of Eastern Infantry, one to breach the gates and the other the wall opposite the secondary street leading to the city centre.
Several counter-attacks by the Seleucids were easily beaten back by missile fire and only added to the carpet of bodies behind the walls.
At this point I thought the battle was more or less over bar the run to the city centre. This had always been the case in the past.
However, I had a rude surprise awaiting me for as my two huge Eastern infantry formations entered the city for the planned drive on the city centre the Seleucids launched a well timed counter attack. A large phalanx emerged from the secondary road and turned to attack the Eastern infantry entering the city through the gate.
I laughed at their stupidity for in attacking this unit they had exposed not just their flank but their rear to my Eastern Infantry entering through the breached wall behind them. In a masterly move I ordered a deadly pincer movement expecting to reap an easy victory and remove one more Seleucid unit from the enemies order of battle.
Not so, too late I realised the the enemy had planned for this move and even as my Eastern Infantry closed on the rear of their phalanx they in turn were hit in the flank and rear first by a massive force of Light Lancers and then by their 30 elephants.
In desperation I ordered forward my Nubian Spearmen to deal with the cavalry and my mercenaries peltasts to deal with the Elephants. But their was no room to deploy and so instead of helping they merely pressed in on the rear of the Eastern Infantry pushing their comrades onto the enemies pikes and increasing the slaughter.
The Eastern Infantry were slaughtered and broke jamming the gate in an attempt to flee the city and the enemy elephants were now in amongst the Peltasts who unable to escape due to the panic at the gate behind then were stomped to death in the street. The Nubians finally arrived after it was all over and managed to stabilize the situation just inside the breach and I finally managed to drive off the enemy Elephants with a costly charge by my Desert Cavalry.
Almost half my army had now dissolved and victory now looked far less certain. A more cautious advance by the Nubians began driving the enemy back along the secondary road, whilst my final unit of Eastern Infantry were ordered to move down the main road to take the city centre.
I must admit I lost track of the Eastern Infantry's progress at this time as I was carefully micro-managing the Nubian's in their slow pursuit up the secondary road. I suspect they were set upon by the enemy generals bodyguard for the next thing I knew they were broken and fleeing for the hills. Now I the Nubian spearmen were the only heavy infantry remaining in my army and they were committed to the wrong road. I was therefore forced to commit my Arab Cavalry to counter the enemy generals counter attack on the main road or risk having them sweep round and take my spearmen in the rear.
It seemed to work for a while, the enemy general was killed and the Arabian Cavalry were in the city centre mixing it with the dregs of the Seleucid routers. I eagerly awaited the appearance of the victory flag.
Not so again, suddenly my mercenary cavalry were in full flight and once again the main road was wide open to the city gates. This time it was the elephants that had returned from what I thought was uncontrolled rout to destroy the bulk of my cavalry.
I gritted my teeth and pressed forward with my spearmen along the secondary road ordering the remnants of my slingers and a few surviving Eastern Infantry who had managed to rally to keep the elephants at bay.
Fortunately, with their general dead the Seleucids had lost their resolve and I was able to slowly drive them back to the city centre with the intention of finishing them off with a hail of slingshot.
This plan worked up to a point, although the enemy had a final card up their sleeve in the form of a massive unit of peasants. I had more or less ignored these as they were normally rubbish and easily dealt with. However, in the huge numbers that existed in the city centre they took on a new menace descending on my small unit of 80 surviving Eastern Infantry and my slingers and doing considerable damage before being driven off.
Finally, the city centre was secure and the flag was counting down. I had settled down to count the cost only to see the flag disappear as 3 surviving elephants emerged from a side street and charged the city centre scattering my slingers and routing my 60 odd surviving Eastern Infantry.
There was no way I was going to lose this battle because of three stupid elephants and so I brought forward my generals chariot bodyguard, rallied my slingers and began pelting the beasts with everything I could throw at them.
It took a long while but eventually I chased them out of the city gates and killed the last one just outside the walls.
Phew! At last the victory screen. But little was left of Pasebakhean's proud army. 807 men reported for duty the next day out of 1,886. Only 146 of out of the 720 Eastern Infantry hired for the campaign remain and only 16 peltasts survived the disaster with the elephants.
The huge size of the units hinders the ability to use combined/mixed forces so that the 'rock/paper/scissors' concepts become much more critical and mistakes are a lot more difficult to correct.
I think this was the most challenging battle I have fought since starting with RTW but I suspect it will not be the last. Damascus is mine but the real prize is Antioch and that is guarded by two massive Seleucid armies and I have little money now to hire more mercenaries.
While I can't condone the unprovoked slaughter of my beloved Seleucid, I think your post and others I've seen really do throw up an interesting point - the difference that unit size can make to so many aspects of the game.
Apart from the battles, they have a big effect on the campaign as well. Taking massive amounts of population out of your cities changes the speed you play the game, and must have a profound effect on the AI as well.
There's a recent thread in this forum where people have been criticising the AI, one for putting out too many full stacks, others for not fielding enough full stacks! Maybe this could have something to do with unit sizes? There have been many other pointless argume - sorry, reasoned discussions - on this and many other forums where people have been arguing at cross purposes, contradicting each other over problems with the AI and the campaign, and obviously I'm not saying that unit sizes are responsible for everything, but maybe they explain some of the very different game experiences people have been having?
For example, Didz, has playing on huge units changed your view of the game fundamentally, or just bought you a few more hours playing time?
If there is a fundamental change in the game on different unit sizes, you'd have thought CA might have scaled the rest of the game to take this into account, wouldn't you?
Apart from the battles, they have a big effect on the campaign as well. Taking massive amounts of population out of your cities changes the speed you play the game, and must have a profound effect on the AI as well.
There's a recent thread in this forum where people have been criticising the AI, one for putting out too many full stacks, others for not fielding enough full stacks! Maybe this could have something to do with unit sizes? There have been many other pointless argume - sorry, reasoned discussions - on this and many other forums where people have been arguing at cross purposes, contradicting each other over problems with the AI and the campaign, and obviously I'm not saying that unit sizes are responsible for everything, but maybe they explain some of the very different game experiences people have been having?
For example, Didz, has playing on huge units changed your view of the game fundamentally, or just bought you a few more hours playing time?
If there is a fundamental change in the game on different unit sizes, you'd have thought CA might have scaled the rest of the game to take this into account, wouldn't you?
What was your frame rate like, Didz? Big armies in a city is as demanding as it gets.
I would try huge if I didn't expect the graphics to chunk up.
I would try huge if I didn't expect the graphics to chunk up.
Originally Posted by Fridge:
For example, Didz, has playing on huge units changed your view of the game fundamentally, or just bought you a few more hours playing time?
My initial reaction is that the huge unit sizes have increased both the challenge and the realism of the game significantly. It feels much more like a wargame now which is where my real interest lies rather than in arcade games.For example, Didz, has playing on huge units changed your view of the game fundamentally, or just bought you a few more hours playing time?
I doubt I shall go back to the nippy little units I used in the Roman Campaign.
One weird effect which I can't believe to be anything other than self-delusion on my part is that the battlefields seem bigger. Sounds daft, I know as one would have expected them to seem smaller with larger units on them but in my most recent battle a unit of Arab Cavalry chased a unit of Seleucid light cavalry off the map and I had to recall them urgently because of a crisis elsewhere and it just seemed to take an age for them to turn up. I could see them galloping like mad across the desert but they just seemed miles away and took ages to arrive.
Originally Posted by Nelson:
What was your frame rate like, Didz? Big armies in a city is as demanding as it gets.
I would try huge if I didn't expect the graphics to chunk up.
My frame rate isn't bad.What was your frame rate like, Didz? Big armies in a city is as demanding as it gets.
I would try huge if I didn't expect the graphics to chunk up.
I experimented with various video settings in custom battles and discovered that i couldn't get away with having everything turned up to the top notch. In the end I let the system choose the optimum for itself and then just changed the unit size without touching anything else.
My current Video setting are:
Resolution: 1024x768x32
Low Anti-Aliasing
Unit Scale: Huge
Details:
Terrain= High
Buildings= Medium
Grass = Medium
Unit=Medium
Effects=High
Vegetation=High
My PC set-up is:
Intel Pentium 3Ghz processor with 2 CPU's,
1024Mb RAM
Nvdia GeForce 5600FX Graphic Card 256Mb Memory
DirectX 9.0b
A Close Run thing
My first major battle with a Seleucid Field Army and huge units lived up to my expectations as something completely different. The battle took place on the border near Palmyra and was a big mistake from the start.
It was intended to be a simple action to drive off a Seleucid General and his bodyguard who had wandered over the border and was a perfect chance for the Pharoah's youngest son Meryre (19) to get a bit of combat experience.
The force sent to do the job consisted of the long suffering survivors of the Eastern Infantry who had survived the storming of Damascus reinforced by a newly hired unit plus two units of Horse Archers, a unit of Arab Cavalry and two units of mercenary javelins. More than enough troops to deal with a single general and his light cavalry bodyguard.
Unfortunately, the young Meryre got lost, or rather I clicked on the enemy unit only to have one of those annoying moments when you realise that the enemy are on the other side of a river and and nearest ford is two days march away.
So, Meryre and his mercenaries marched off across the desert and ran smack bang into a very large Seleucid army which had been hiding just out of detection range. I hit the backspace and hoped that the Seleucids would ignore the young prince, needless to say they didn't and during the Seleucid's next turn Meryre found himself under serious attack.
I thought about withdrawing but decided that would be a really bad start for a Royal Prince in his first battle and so decided to at least make a show of it.
The two units of Eastern Infantry were drawn up on a small hillock in the middle of a totally flat and featureless desert screened by the two units of javelinmen and with a unit of horse archers covering each flank. Meryre and the Arab cavalry were held in reserve behind each flank.
The enemy deployed on the plain. I have no idea how many there were, my only impression was of an absolute sea of pikes that looked like a mobile forest. I suspect there must have been eight phalanx units flanked by light cavalry but fortunately no missile troops as far as I could see.
The battle opened with the Arab Horse Archers galloping forward to begin harassing the enemy phalanxes.
The enemy began their slow advance and sent their light cavalry to chase off the horse archers. I countered by committing my Arab Cavalry to drive off their lancers and they countered by sending in their elephants. Which amazingly I hadn't noticed until then as they had been hiding behind the forest of pikes.
I read somewhere that the best counter for elephants was light javelins and so I committed one unit to the escalating battle on my left flank, where a fierce whirling skirmish was being played out. I was surprised shortly afterwards to find that my men seemed to have won and that both the enemy elephants and lancers were fleeing for the map edge pursued by the Arab cavalry.
I redirected my missile troops to the business of thinning out the phalanxes trudging up the hill but the skirmish on the left had bought them the time they needed and as the screening javelin unit withdrew before them they closed heavily with the hapless Eastern infantry who began to die very quickly.
In an act of desperation I hurled a unit of Horse Archers into the flank of the phalanx attacking the left hand unit and after a brief resistance it broke and fled back down the slope. However, it was only a temporary reprieve and it was quickly replaced by a phalanx from their second line which pinioned the Horse Archers against my own infantry and routed them.
The Eastern infantry quickly followed their example and a charge by the enemy general drove off the other horse archer unit leaving Meryre and a single unit of Javelins to face the entire enemy army.
A desperate message was sent recalling the Arab Cavalry from their pursuit of the Seleucid cavalry and in the meanwhile Meryre and the javelinmen conducted a slow fighting withdrawal before the mass of enemy pikes.
Several charges by the enemy generals bodyguard were driven off each suffering heavy losses from Meryre's chariot archers until finally the Arab Cavalry turned up and descended on the enemy general, killing him and driving off his bodyguard. The success was short lived and the arab cavalry promptly decided to loot the generals corpse and scarper before the enemy infantry caught them or the their young Eygptian leader tried to get them to do something really dangerous. Like charge a phalanx.
The javelin men threw their last javelins and Meryre order them to withdraw.
Now it was just him and eight Seleucid phalanx's and he kept taking them down until he ran out of arrows. At that point he was about to withdraw and cede the battle when he noticed a Seleucid unit all alone in the middle of the battle field. A quick recon confirmed it to be a large mass of peasants who had been distracted by the temptations of looting the dead and had fallen behind the enemies main body.
Sensing a fitting end to the day Meryre wasted no time but rushed his chariot and its bodyguard around the flanks of the slow moving phalanx's and descended like an avenging hawk upon the enemy peasants. The slaughter was brief and bloody with Meryre pursuing the enemy and killing every single one.
As the timer ticked down to zero and dusk fell Meryre began composing his story of how he had won a great victory. Though in truth is was hardly a victory at all and a very close run thing in any event.
But the young prince had gained his combat expereince.
My first major battle with a Seleucid Field Army and huge units lived up to my expectations as something completely different. The battle took place on the border near Palmyra and was a big mistake from the start.
It was intended to be a simple action to drive off a Seleucid General and his bodyguard who had wandered over the border and was a perfect chance for the Pharoah's youngest son Meryre (19) to get a bit of combat experience.
The force sent to do the job consisted of the long suffering survivors of the Eastern Infantry who had survived the storming of Damascus reinforced by a newly hired unit plus two units of Horse Archers, a unit of Arab Cavalry and two units of mercenary javelins. More than enough troops to deal with a single general and his light cavalry bodyguard.
Unfortunately, the young Meryre got lost, or rather I clicked on the enemy unit only to have one of those annoying moments when you realise that the enemy are on the other side of a river and and nearest ford is two days march away.
So, Meryre and his mercenaries marched off across the desert and ran smack bang into a very large Seleucid army which had been hiding just out of detection range. I hit the backspace and hoped that the Seleucids would ignore the young prince, needless to say they didn't and during the Seleucid's next turn Meryre found himself under serious attack.
I thought about withdrawing but decided that would be a really bad start for a Royal Prince in his first battle and so decided to at least make a show of it.
The two units of Eastern Infantry were drawn up on a small hillock in the middle of a totally flat and featureless desert screened by the two units of javelinmen and with a unit of horse archers covering each flank. Meryre and the Arab cavalry were held in reserve behind each flank.
The enemy deployed on the plain. I have no idea how many there were, my only impression was of an absolute sea of pikes that looked like a mobile forest. I suspect there must have been eight phalanx units flanked by light cavalry but fortunately no missile troops as far as I could see.
The battle opened with the Arab Horse Archers galloping forward to begin harassing the enemy phalanxes.
The enemy began their slow advance and sent their light cavalry to chase off the horse archers. I countered by committing my Arab Cavalry to drive off their lancers and they countered by sending in their elephants. Which amazingly I hadn't noticed until then as they had been hiding behind the forest of pikes.
I read somewhere that the best counter for elephants was light javelins and so I committed one unit to the escalating battle on my left flank, where a fierce whirling skirmish was being played out. I was surprised shortly afterwards to find that my men seemed to have won and that both the enemy elephants and lancers were fleeing for the map edge pursued by the Arab cavalry.
I redirected my missile troops to the business of thinning out the phalanxes trudging up the hill but the skirmish on the left had bought them the time they needed and as the screening javelin unit withdrew before them they closed heavily with the hapless Eastern infantry who began to die very quickly.
In an act of desperation I hurled a unit of Horse Archers into the flank of the phalanx attacking the left hand unit and after a brief resistance it broke and fled back down the slope. However, it was only a temporary reprieve and it was quickly replaced by a phalanx from their second line which pinioned the Horse Archers against my own infantry and routed them.
The Eastern infantry quickly followed their example and a charge by the enemy general drove off the other horse archer unit leaving Meryre and a single unit of Javelins to face the entire enemy army.
A desperate message was sent recalling the Arab Cavalry from their pursuit of the Seleucid cavalry and in the meanwhile Meryre and the javelinmen conducted a slow fighting withdrawal before the mass of enemy pikes.
Several charges by the enemy generals bodyguard were driven off each suffering heavy losses from Meryre's chariot archers until finally the Arab Cavalry turned up and descended on the enemy general, killing him and driving off his bodyguard. The success was short lived and the arab cavalry promptly decided to loot the generals corpse and scarper before the enemy infantry caught them or the their young Eygptian leader tried to get them to do something really dangerous. Like charge a phalanx.
The javelin men threw their last javelins and Meryre order them to withdraw.
Now it was just him and eight Seleucid phalanx's and he kept taking them down until he ran out of arrows. At that point he was about to withdraw and cede the battle when he noticed a Seleucid unit all alone in the middle of the battle field. A quick recon confirmed it to be a large mass of peasants who had been distracted by the temptations of looting the dead and had fallen behind the enemies main body.
Sensing a fitting end to the day Meryre wasted no time but rushed his chariot and its bodyguard around the flanks of the slow moving phalanx's and descended like an avenging hawk upon the enemy peasants. The slaughter was brief and bloody with Meryre pursuing the enemy and killing every single one.
As the timer ticked down to zero and dusk fell Meryre began composing his story of how he had won a great victory. Though in truth is was hardly a victory at all and a very close run thing in any event.
But the young prince had gained his combat expereince.
Originally Posted by Didz:
A Close Run thing
My first major battle with a Seleucid Field Army and huge units lived up to my expectations as something completely different. The battle took place on the border near Palmyra and was a big mistake from the start.
It was intended to be a simple action to drive off a Seleucid General and his bodyguard who had wandered over the border and was a perfect chance for the Pharoah's youngest son Meryre (19) to get a bit of combat experience.
The force sent to do the job consisted of the long suffering survivors of the Eastern Infantry who had survived the storming of Damascus reinforced by a newly hired unit plus two units of Horse Archers, a unit of Arab Cavalry and two units of mercenary javelins. More than enough troops to deal with a single general and his light cavalry bodyguard.
Unfortunately, the young Meryre got lost, or rather I clicked on the enemy unit only to have one of those annoying moments when you realise that the enemy are on the other side of a river and and nearest ford is two days march away.
So, Meryre and his mercenaries marched off across the desert and ran smack bang into a very large Seleucid army which had been hiding just out of detection range. I hit the backspace and hoped that the Seleucids would ignore the young prince, needless to say they didn't and during the Seleucid's next turn Meryre found himself under serious attack.
I thought about withdrawing but decided that would be a really bad start for a Royal Prince in his first battle and so decided to at least make a show of it.
The two units of Eastern Infantry were drawn up on a small hillock in the middle of a totally flat and featureless desert screened by the two units of javelinmen and with a unit of horse archers covering each flank. Meryre and the Arab cavalry were held in reserve behind each flank.
The enemy deployed on the plain. I have no idea how many there were, my only impression was of an absolute sea of pikes that looked like a mobile forest. I suspect there must have been eight phalanx units flanked by light cavalry but fortunately no missile troops as far as I could see.
The battle opened with the Arab Horse Archers galloping forward to begin harassing the enemy phalanxes.
The enemy began their slow advance and sent their light cavalry to chase off the horse archers. I countered by committing my Arab Cavalry to drive off their lancers and they countered by sending in their elephants. Which amazingly I hadn't noticed until then as they had been hiding behind the forest of pikes.
I read somewhere that the best counter for elephants was light javelins and so I committed one unit to the escalating battle on my left flank, where a fierce whirling skirmish was being played out. I was surprised shortly afterwards to find that my men seemed to have won and that both the enemy elephants and lancers were fleeing for the map edge pursued by the Arab cavalry.
I redirected my missile troops to the business of thinning out the phalanxes trudging up the hill but the skirmish on the left had bought them the time they needed and as the screening javelin unit withdrew before them they closed heavily with the hapless Eastern infantry who began to die very quickly.
In an act of desperation I hurled a unit of Horse Archers into the flank of the phalanx attacking the left hand unit and after a brief resistance it broke and fled back down the slope. However, it was only a temporary reprieve and it was quickly replaced by a phalanx from their second line which pinioned the Horse Archers against my own infantry and routed them.
The Eastern infantry quickly followed their example and a charge by the enemy general drove off the other horse archer unit leaving Meryre and a single unit of Javelins to face the entire enemy army.
A desperate message was sent recalling the Arab Cavalry from their pursuit of the Seleucid cavalry and in the meanwhile Meryre and the javelinmen conducted a slow fighting withdrawal before the mass of enemy pikes.
Several charges by the enemy generals bodyguard were driven off each suffering heavy losses from Meryre's chariot archers until finally the Arab Cavalry turned up and descended on the enemy general, killing him and driving off his bodyguard. The success was short lived and the arab cavalry promptly decided to loot the generals corpse and scarper before the enemy infantry caught them or the their young Eygptian leader tried to get them to do something really dangerous. Like charge a phalanx.
The javelin men threw their last javelins and Meryre order them to withdraw.
Now it was just him and eight Seleucid phalanx's and he kept taking them down until he ran out of arrows. At that point he was about to withdraw and cede the battle when he noticed a Seleucid unit all alone in the middle of the battle field. A quick recon confirmed it to be a large mass of peasants who had been distracted by the temptations of looting the dead and had fallen behind the enemies main body.
Sensing a fitting end to the day Meryre wasted no time but rushed his chariot and its bodyguard around the flanks of the slow moving phalanx's and descended like an avenging hawk upon the enemy peasants. The slaughter was brief and bloody with Meryre pursuing the enemy and killing every single one.
As the timer ticked down to zero and dusk fell Meryre began composing his story of how he had won a great victory. Though in truth is was hardly a victory at all and a very close run thing in any event.
But the young prince had gained his combat expereince.
A Close Run thing
My first major battle with a Seleucid Field Army and huge units lived up to my expectations as something completely different. The battle took place on the border near Palmyra and was a big mistake from the start.
It was intended to be a simple action to drive off a Seleucid General and his bodyguard who had wandered over the border and was a perfect chance for the Pharoah's youngest son Meryre (19) to get a bit of combat experience.
The force sent to do the job consisted of the long suffering survivors of the Eastern Infantry who had survived the storming of Damascus reinforced by a newly hired unit plus two units of Horse Archers, a unit of Arab Cavalry and two units of mercenary javelins. More than enough troops to deal with a single general and his light cavalry bodyguard.
Unfortunately, the young Meryre got lost, or rather I clicked on the enemy unit only to have one of those annoying moments when you realise that the enemy are on the other side of a river and and nearest ford is two days march away.
So, Meryre and his mercenaries marched off across the desert and ran smack bang into a very large Seleucid army which had been hiding just out of detection range. I hit the backspace and hoped that the Seleucids would ignore the young prince, needless to say they didn't and during the Seleucid's next turn Meryre found himself under serious attack.
I thought about withdrawing but decided that would be a really bad start for a Royal Prince in his first battle and so decided to at least make a show of it.
The two units of Eastern Infantry were drawn up on a small hillock in the middle of a totally flat and featureless desert screened by the two units of javelinmen and with a unit of horse archers covering each flank. Meryre and the Arab cavalry were held in reserve behind each flank.
The enemy deployed on the plain. I have no idea how many there were, my only impression was of an absolute sea of pikes that looked like a mobile forest. I suspect there must have been eight phalanx units flanked by light cavalry but fortunately no missile troops as far as I could see.
The battle opened with the Arab Horse Archers galloping forward to begin harassing the enemy phalanxes.
The enemy began their slow advance and sent their light cavalry to chase off the horse archers. I countered by committing my Arab Cavalry to drive off their lancers and they countered by sending in their elephants. Which amazingly I hadn't noticed until then as they had been hiding behind the forest of pikes.
I read somewhere that the best counter for elephants was light javelins and so I committed one unit to the escalating battle on my left flank, where a fierce whirling skirmish was being played out. I was surprised shortly afterwards to find that my men seemed to have won and that both the enemy elephants and lancers were fleeing for the map edge pursued by the Arab cavalry.
I redirected my missile troops to the business of thinning out the phalanxes trudging up the hill but the skirmish on the left had bought them the time they needed and as the screening javelin unit withdrew before them they closed heavily with the hapless Eastern infantry who began to die very quickly.
In an act of desperation I hurled a unit of Horse Archers into the flank of the phalanx attacking the left hand unit and after a brief resistance it broke and fled back down the slope. However, it was only a temporary reprieve and it was quickly replaced by a phalanx from their second line which pinioned the Horse Archers against my own infantry and routed them.
The Eastern infantry quickly followed their example and a charge by the enemy general drove off the other horse archer unit leaving Meryre and a single unit of Javelins to face the entire enemy army.
A desperate message was sent recalling the Arab Cavalry from their pursuit of the Seleucid cavalry and in the meanwhile Meryre and the javelinmen conducted a slow fighting withdrawal before the mass of enemy pikes.
Several charges by the enemy generals bodyguard were driven off each suffering heavy losses from Meryre's chariot archers until finally the Arab Cavalry turned up and descended on the enemy general, killing him and driving off his bodyguard. The success was short lived and the arab cavalry promptly decided to loot the generals corpse and scarper before the enemy infantry caught them or the their young Eygptian leader tried to get them to do something really dangerous. Like charge a phalanx.
The javelin men threw their last javelins and Meryre order them to withdraw.
Now it was just him and eight Seleucid phalanx's and he kept taking them down until he ran out of arrows. At that point he was about to withdraw and cede the battle when he noticed a Seleucid unit all alone in the middle of the battle field. A quick recon confirmed it to be a large mass of peasants who had been distracted by the temptations of looting the dead and had fallen behind the enemies main body.
Sensing a fitting end to the day Meryre wasted no time but rushed his chariot and its bodyguard around the flanks of the slow moving phalanx's and descended like an avenging hawk upon the enemy peasants. The slaughter was brief and bloody with Meryre pursuing the enemy and killing every single one.
As the timer ticked down to zero and dusk fell Meryre began composing his story of how he had won a great victory. Though in truth is was hardly a victory at all and a very close run thing in any event.
But the young prince had gained his combat expereince.
Didz, great story keep on posting them!
Didz, i wonder why your frame rate is good?!?! lol
That is a very powerful (and VERY EXPENSIVE) set up you've got. How much did it cost? (and if you say about $3000, i'll know you're talking american dollars).
I'm scared to try huge, as i only have
amd athlon 2500
nvidia geforce 5200
512mg ram
i'm looking to upgrade but i'm not sure if my mobo can take it :(
cheers, great stories
That is a very powerful (and VERY EXPENSIVE) set up you've got. How much did it cost? (and if you say about $3000, i'll know you're talking american dollars).
I'm scared to try huge, as i only have
amd athlon 2500
nvidia geforce 5200
512mg ram
i'm looking to upgrade but i'm not sure if my mobo can take it :(
cheers, great stories
Originally Posted by sapi:
That is a very powerful (and VERY EXPENSIVE) set up you've got. How much did it cost?
The basic PC cost £400 from Employeesales.co.uk, they sell re-conditioned and surplus PC's and I get all mine from there now.That is a very powerful (and VERY EXPENSIVE) set up you've got. How much did it cost?
The graphic's card was about £120 and came with a nice set of 3D games but its not the best on the market anymore, my son has just upgraded his PC to the latest (5600 Ultra) that cost £350.
The 1Mb memory upgrade cost £110 from the little computer shop just up the road (I avoid PC world if I can).
So, altogether and ignoring software like MsOffice it cost about £870 not the £3,000 you were suggesting. The trick as always is to know where to go.
BTW: Ebay is always worth a look, I think my son sold his redundant Nvidia 5600 FX card on there when he upgraded complete with the orginal box and games package.
Picking up on Fridges point about the strategic impact of Huge units I can confirm that these are really beginning to bite in my game now.
During my vanilla campaign as the Romans I got into a routine habit of putting conquered cities to the sword. It made sense, after all they had resisted Roman rule and the reduction of population gave me time to settle any cultural issues without having riots in the streets every few minutes.
I am being forced to rethink this policy in my new campaign as with huge units de-population has become a real issue. One unit of peasants for example can strip a city of 240 men and at least one of my cities now has no men left capable of military service and a population of only 562 old men, women and children.
Hence you will notice that most of my armies are formed from arab and persian mercenaries. This seems to be limiting the AI too and so far I have failed to notice anyone fielding the huge army stacks, or the masses of small armies I witnessed in the first campaign. That doesn't mean that the AI doesn't do daft things like sending a general unit out alone but its not so noticeable.
Strategy seems to have changed also as most of my armies are now City based garrissons that fulfill a duel role as keepers of order and defence force. And most battles are brief sallies from the city to drive off an encrouching enemy rather than long campaign marches. The sinple reason in my case is that I don't have the troops for such things.
This means spies, assassins and diplomats have a bigger role in this campaign too. Committing an army is a serious business and so I need to know its really necessary. Assassinating an enemy general can remove his bodyguard without the need to dispatch an army and so its well worth the risk of an assassin to try it and keep the army in hand for use elsewhere.
I have yet to see a full army stack in my game though the garrison of Sidon is almost there, in the meantime the availability of mercenaries in the border provinces is a serious influence upon my offensive capability, especailly as i have to pay them off regularly to save money between forays.
During my vanilla campaign as the Romans I got into a routine habit of putting conquered cities to the sword. It made sense, after all they had resisted Roman rule and the reduction of population gave me time to settle any cultural issues without having riots in the streets every few minutes.
I am being forced to rethink this policy in my new campaign as with huge units de-population has become a real issue. One unit of peasants for example can strip a city of 240 men and at least one of my cities now has no men left capable of military service and a population of only 562 old men, women and children.
Hence you will notice that most of my armies are formed from arab and persian mercenaries. This seems to be limiting the AI too and so far I have failed to notice anyone fielding the huge army stacks, or the masses of small armies I witnessed in the first campaign. That doesn't mean that the AI doesn't do daft things like sending a general unit out alone but its not so noticeable.
Strategy seems to have changed also as most of my armies are now City based garrissons that fulfill a duel role as keepers of order and defence force. And most battles are brief sallies from the city to drive off an encrouching enemy rather than long campaign marches. The sinple reason in my case is that I don't have the troops for such things.
This means spies, assassins and diplomats have a bigger role in this campaign too. Committing an army is a serious business and so I need to know its really necessary. Assassinating an enemy general can remove his bodyguard without the need to dispatch an army and so its well worth the risk of an assassin to try it and keep the army in hand for use elsewhere.
I have yet to see a full army stack in my game though the garrison of Sidon is almost there, in the meantime the availability of mercenaries in the border provinces is a serious influence upon my offensive capability, especailly as i have to pay them off regularly to save money between forays.
Didz, you should try playing the Seleucids! I think I'm having a parallel conversation with you on another thread about the merits of the Seleuc unit selection, but on huge units their painfully slow population growth makes it a real challenge. At least with the Nile delta you've got a nice fertile valley to generate more pike-fodder!
I, as do you apparently, rely heavily on mercenaries, but that's very expensive, and just about negates the Seleuc's main strength, their economy. Also, not being able to retrain mercenary units makes them problematic; they never get enough experience and after the numbers have been thinned out in a couple of battles, they're effectiveness drops alarmingly.
What campaign level are you playing on? I'm playing with R:TR for the first time, and on VH campaign difficulty for the first time and I'm finding it very, very hard...
I, as do you apparently, rely heavily on mercenaries, but that's very expensive, and just about negates the Seleuc's main strength, their economy. Also, not being able to retrain mercenary units makes them problematic; they never get enough experience and after the numbers have been thinned out in a couple of battles, they're effectiveness drops alarmingly.
What campaign level are you playing on? I'm playing with R:TR for the first time, and on VH campaign difficulty for the first time and I'm finding it very, very hard...
Originally Posted by Fridge:
What campaign level are you playing on? I'm playing with R:TR for the first time, and on VH campaign difficulty for the first time and I'm finding it very, very hard...
I'm sticking to the medium setting. Personally, I don't like the way most strategy games apply difficulty levels as its so artificial. If the AI got better as the difficulty increased then I'd go for it but in most cases they just force feed the AI more resources or starve the human player and that really smacks of cheating in my book.What campaign level are you playing on? I'm playing with R:TR for the first time, and on VH campaign difficulty for the first time and I'm finding it very, very hard...
After all we would soon complain if on VH the enemy troops were twice as tall as ours and their archers could fire twice as far and yet we seem quite willing to have their cities produce twice as much gold and the builders work twice as fast.
I agree - up to a point. My last campaign I played on H campaign, VH battles, and then I discovered that VH battles just mean a +7 attack score to every unit - so peasants would suddenly be attacking like legionaries.
To be honest, it didn't really affect battles on the strategic level, but completely screwed up thinking on a tactical level, as you couldn't predict unit-on-unit battles any more. So this time, as it's my first go with R:TR, I'm playing the battles on normal, but to make it more of a challenge I'm playing the campaign on VH - just so the armies I face will (hopefully) be better quality. And so far, it's certainly a challenge. But at least the AI's cheating is done out of sight inside their cities, rather than on the battlefield!
To be honest, it didn't really affect battles on the strategic level, but completely screwed up thinking on a tactical level, as you couldn't predict unit-on-unit battles any more. So this time, as it's my first go with R:TR, I'm playing the battles on normal, but to make it more of a challenge I'm playing the campaign on VH - just so the armies I face will (hopefully) be better quality. And so far, it's certainly a challenge. But at least the AI's cheating is done out of sight inside their cities, rather than on the battlefield!
Yes, the AI has a serious problem with Huge units sizes because it simply builds and builds until its settlement populations are severely depleted.
The whole issue with unit sizes could be avoided if CA scaled the game's city/population system to match the unit size selected. Basically if you play with Huge sized units then starting populations for all settlements should be four times larger as well. To offset any problems with massive populations and growth the population threshholds needed to enlarge a given settlement would increase fourfold as well (i.e. with Huge sized units a Huge city can only be achieved by reaching 100,000 inhabitants instead of 24,000).
The whole issue with unit sizes could be avoided if CA scaled the game's city/population system to match the unit size selected. Basically if you play with Huge sized units then starting populations for all settlements should be four times larger as well. To offset any problems with massive populations and growth the population threshholds needed to enlarge a given settlement would increase fourfold as well (i.e. with Huge sized units a Huge city can only be achieved by reaching 100,000 inhabitants instead of 24,000).
Great story!! A great example of a Pyrrhic victory.
Keep em coming.
Interesting information about the strategic differences too. Sounds like it would be more realistic. Especially the part about the seriousness of commiting armies.
Keep em coming.
Interesting information about the strategic differences too. Sounds like it would be more realistic. Especially the part about the seriousness of commiting armies.
Athlon XP 2600+
512mb pc2300
Radeon 9600pro
Huge Units
All Graphical Options at Max
With that setup I was able to play without lag in battles of up to 2000-2500 men...depending on whether I was fighting a siege or battling in the field. At 3000-3500 men there would be constant, but minor, lag. Anything more than that was hard on the eyes.
I enjoy the way the game looks and plays with the huge unit setup. I just wish it was possible to decide the unit size on a per-battle basis. Those barbarian scum, the Daciens, love to hit me with the Army of Lag. Three thousand barbarians is lag enough unto itself; Having to field a 2000+ man Roman army in addition to the barbarian dirtbags makes my GPU plead for mercy.
512mb pc2300
Radeon 9600pro
Huge Units
All Graphical Options at Max
With that setup I was able to play without lag in battles of up to 2000-2500 men...depending on whether I was fighting a siege or battling in the field. At 3000-3500 men there would be constant, but minor, lag. Anything more than that was hard on the eyes.
I enjoy the way the game looks and plays with the huge unit setup. I just wish it was possible to decide the unit size on a per-battle basis. Those barbarian scum, the Daciens, love to hit me with the Army of Lag. Three thousand barbarians is lag enough unto itself; Having to field a 2000+ man Roman army in addition to the barbarian dirtbags makes my GPU plead for mercy.
Originally Posted by Spino:
Yes, the AI has a serious problem with Huge units sizes because it simply builds and builds until its settlement populations are severely depleted.
Not sure if thats the case but its certainly what I've been doing Yes, the AI has a serious problem with Huge units sizes because it simply builds and builds until its settlement populations are severely depleted.
Originally Posted by Spino:
The whole issue with unit sizes could be avoided if CA scaled the game's city/population system to match the unit size selected. Basically if you play with Huge sized units then starting populations for all settlements should be four times larger as well.
I disagree. I think mobilisation of military units ought to drain the cities of their manpower. Its a really nice game mechanic whihc in my opinion ought to be applied retrospectively.The whole issue with unit sizes could be avoided if CA scaled the game's city/population system to match the unit size selected. Basically if you play with Huge sized units then starting populations for all settlements should be four times larger as well.
If anything city populations ought to be reduced so that manpower becomes a problem even when fielding small units.
It would certainly put the brakes on some of the rushers out there.
I think the huge unit size suits my style of play the best, as I'm very much a 'steady as she goes' expansionist, and I try and help out my allies and honour alliances whenever possible. As a result, the AI factions are left mostly to themselves, and I've not seen too much evidence of severe depopulation. But as I say, I'm expanding at a slow rate so maybe elsewhere on the map there are huge cities populated by 400 old men and children... It's certainly not stopped the Greeks sending in full stacks of armoured hoplites to retake Athens (or rather, attempt to retake...) Now I've switched to huge, I don't think I'll go back again.
First my stats P4 1.18 GHz, 512 Megs of ram, Geforce4 ti4200 128 Megs of vram. My PC can't run huge unit size very well, flaming missiles and/or full stack army lag fests were deal breakers. I know use large and it splits the difference between medium and huge. My cities have slower population growth than medium but not at the glacial pace of huge. The and AI and myself have never de-populated cities training armies, and the armies on large are big enough to have that climactic battle feel about them. I have had battles between full stack armies on medium. But that was usually between me and pontic amries of eastern meat shield,,err infantry. The AI has it's usual practice of not pulling together a full stack until their at the place where they are gonna attack.
nice, now i get to see how bad my videocard is, but my cpu and ram seem ok
it's fine so far...
it's fine so far...
(unrelated)
I remember many players consider infantry running speed too fast. (I found it is ok, because horses run faster) In huge unit size I always hate the "slow" running speed of infantry. They turn especially poorly, leaving gaps within the unit - sometimes only leaving a thin layer of soldiers fighting.
So if you think infantry runs too fast, then definitely try a larger unit size. You will suffer.
I remember many players consider infantry running speed too fast. (I found it is ok, because horses run faster
) In huge unit size I always hate the "slow" running speed of infantry. They turn especially poorly, leaving gaps within the unit - sometimes only leaving a thin layer of soldiers fighting.So if you think infantry runs too fast, then definitely try a larger unit size. You will suffer.
GREAT post DiDz ! Brilliant writing !
how do you change the game so that units have more soldiers in them in the first place? i can't figure it out 
Originally Posted by Claudius the God:
how do you change the game so that units have more soldiers in them in the first place? i can't figure it out
Choose OPTIONS, how do you change the game so that units have more soldiers in them in the first place? i can't figure it out
Click on VIDEO SETTINGS,
Click on SHOW ADVANCED OPTIONS,
Change UNIT SCALE to HUGE.
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