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  1. #1
    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    dismal,

    The number 1.5 would seem to be favorable to you, as you noted earlier. Did your general have a command value of at least 4 when you failed to win SOC?
    I think he probably did at some point. The context of all this was that I was trying to make observations of different variables in my rebel v. general battles to see what made a victory "heroic", so I wasn't paying that much attention to command stars. But a couple of my generals worked up to 8 or so stars during this campaign, so I imagine they had more than a few battles above 4 stars. See thread:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=55824

  2. #2
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Here's an entry from the Events, Conditions, and Commands thread by Blitz576 in the Scriptorium (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43121):

    ---------------------------------------------------
    Identifier: BattleOdds
    Trigger requirements: character_record
    Parameters: logic token, test value
    Sample use: BattleOdds > 5
    Description: Test the odds to win i.e. 5 (5:1)
    Battle or Strat: Either
    Class: BATTLE_ODDS_TEST
    Implemented: Yes
    Author: Lee
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Which connects the BattleOdds identifier to a ratio - it looks like the larger the number the greater your chance of victory.


    Also: from export_desc_character_traits.txt:

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger V0090_Standard_Battle_Any_Victory_VnV_Trigger
    WhenToTest PostBattle

    Condition IsGeneral
    and WonBattle
    and BattleOdds < 2.25

    Affects GoodCommander 1 Chance 100

    ;------------------------------------------

    This indicates that your general has a command trait increase if he wins a battle in which the odds are not too heavily in his favor.

    Finally, from the same file:

    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger V0110_Standard_Risky_Battle_Attacker_Clear_Victory_VnV_Trigger
    WhenToTest PostBattle

    Condition WasAttacker
    and IsGeneral
    and WonBattle
    and BattleSuccess = crushing
    and I_ConflictType Normal
    and BattleOdds < 0.5
    and BattleOdds > 0.16

    Affects GoodRiskyAttacker 1 Chance 100

    ;------------------------------------------
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger V0150_Standard_Risky_Battle_Attacker_Crushing_Victory_VnV_Trigger
    WhenToTest PostBattle

    Condition WasAttacker
    and IsGeneral
    and WonBattle
    and BattleSuccess = crushing
    and I_ConflictType Normal
    and BattleOdds <= 0.16

    Affects GoodRiskyAttacker 2 Chance 100
    Affects TacticalSkill 1 Chance 5

    ;------------------------------------------

    Here your general gets rewarded if he wins a crushing victory in a "risky" battle, which evidently means battle odds of less than 1/2. Note that if the battle odds are less than 1/6, his reward is greater.

    I conclude from this that if BattleOdds>1 you have an advantage, so you can win Son of Chinglu if the odds are in your favor. What has prevented you from winning it on the occasions you mentioned earlier, I can't say.

    (I should mention that all these examples are from RTW 1.2, but I'd be surprised if they differed from BI.)
    Last edited by Atilius; 11-02-2005 at 06:05.
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  3. #3
    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Interesting, if that is a comprehensive list (and it seems to be) of all the triggers, then there are only 2 related to your chances of winning a battle:

    BattleOdds and this:

    Identifier: I_BattlePlayerAllianceOddsInFavour
    Trigger requirements:
    Parameters: logic token
    Sample use: I_BattlePlayerAllianceOddsInFavour > 5
    Description: Odds in favour of the player i.e. 5 (5:1)
    Battle or Strat: Battle
    Class: BATTLE_PLAYER_ALLIANCE_ODDS_IN_FAVOUR
    Implemented: Yes
    Author: Scott
    BattleOdds is both a strat map and battle map variable, whereas the one above is a battle map only variable.

    Perhaps it's the I_BattlePlayerAllianceOddsInFavour variable that tracks the ebbs and flows in odds during the battle (and translates them to the red-blue slider in the battle map).

    On the balance, I think you've made a decent case that the BattleOdds variable is driven by the strength rating you get before you enter battle, but I can't help but think it's not as simple as 3:2 = 1.5.

    It just hasn't been my experience that you win those sorts of traits/ancillaries on even 1:1 battles, let alone those in your favor.

    I think there is an issue of 1.2 versus BI we need to be careful about. I think the developers have acknowledged making it harder to get command stars.

    I wonder if there is a hard-coded modifier to the pre-battle strength assessment that is applied before testing for traits and ancillaries. I wouldn't be surprised if this modifier is based in on your difficulty setting. (e.g., on VH it may take a 1:1 strength assessment and multiply it by 2 so you don't qualify on BattleOdds<1.5)

    I'm going to have to watch out for a battle that has all the other necessary elements but misses what appears to be a 100% chance. Since I'm playing Saxons, warlord_saxons would make a nice test. If I just have a 4 star non-leader/heir general it will be easy to find a few rebels to beat at 1:1.

  4. #4
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Dismal,

    Concerning differences between 1.2 and BI - I only meant that BattleOdds is unlikely to have changed meaning. Thresholds for awarding traits certainly may have.

    You mention that winning traits and ancillaries isn't as easy as the triggers seem to indicate. I think that's because it gets harder to gain each additional Command point. Suppose that your general never loses battles and only fights battles at with BattleOdds < 2.25 so that the
    "V0090_Standard_Battle_Any_Victory_VnV_Trigger" always fires. If he starts the game with Command=0, he needs 1 victory to get Command=1 and 2 victories to get Command=2, but 4, 8, and 16 to go to Command=3, 4, and 5.
    (These are for RTW 1.2 & 1.3)

    The number of battle stars also don't equate directly to Command, since ancillaries influence battle stars on both maps and traits like GoodAttacker and GoodDefender influence them on the battle map. So, getting back to Son of Chinglu, my guess is that the Command >= 4 test refers only to the general's unmodified Command value. In RTW 1.3 this would mean he'd need to have the Great Commander, Legendary Commander, Legendary Warlord, or Military Genius traits.

    You might test this by determining if these traits are still valid in BI, if they can apply to the Huns, and find out if there are BI-specific Command=4 traits. Then it's just a matter of checking if the general has the trait before battle.

    Better yet, if you're comfortable with a slight mod, change one or more of your characters to have the trait (for example) GoodCommander 4 in desc_strat.txt. Then they will have the trait to start the game and you wouldn't have to check for it. I suppose they could lose it though.... Well, you get the point.

    I'd be curious about what you find out.
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  5. #5
    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    Dismal,

    Concerning differences between 1.2 and BI - I only meant that BattleOdds is unlikely to have changed meaning. Thresholds for awarding traits certainly may have.

    You mention that winning traits and ancillaries isn't as easy as the triggers seem to indicate. I think that's because it gets harder to gain each additional Command point. Suppose that your general never loses battles and only fights battles at with BattleOdds < 2.25 so that the
    "V0090_Standard_Battle_Any_Victory_VnV_Trigger" always fires. If he starts the game with Command=0, he needs 1 victory to get Command=1 and 2 victories to get Command=2, but 4, 8, and 16 to go to Command=3, 4, and 5.
    (These are for RTW 1.2 & 1.3)

    The number of battle stars also don't equate directly to Command, since ancillaries influence battle stars on both maps and traits like GoodAttacker and GoodDefender influence them on the battle map. So, getting back to Son of Chinglu, my guess is that the Command >= 4 test refers only to the general's unmodified Command value. In RTW 1.3 this would mean he'd need to have the Great Commander, Legendary Commander, Legendary Warlord, or Military Genius traits.

    You might test this by determining if these traits are still valid in BI, if they can apply to the Huns, and find out if there are BI-specific Command=4 traits. Then it's just a matter of checking if the general has the trait before battle.

    Better yet, if you're comfortable with a slight mod, change one or more of your characters to have the trait (for example) GoodCommander 4 in desc_strat.txt. Then they will have the trait to start the game and you wouldn't have to check for it. I suppose they could lose it though.... Well, you get the point.

    I'd be curious about what you find out.
    I think "natural" (meaning good commander line) 4 command generals are a thing of the past. I still get high star generals - even the occasional ten star - but they are usually from a combo of various ancillaries and other traits.

    I'm pretty sure the guy I had who won "Son of Chinglu" was not any more than a Great Commander, if that. I don't believe I've ever made it to Legendary Commander in BI.

    I'd also point out that the criteria test is ostensibly applied to the variable "Command", not the variable "GoodCommander".

    I suppose you are right that someone with the skills and will could figure all this out by fighting a series of battles with a modded general plus an appropriate enemy, but I'm afraid that isn't me. Maybe when I finish my current campaign I will work on developing my modding skills.

  6. #6
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Quote Originally Posted by dismal
    I'd also point out that the criteria test is ostensibly applied to the variable "Command", not the variable "GoodCommander".
    At game start, this is how you would assign the Great Commander trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by dismal
    I suppose you are right that someone with the skills and will could figure all this out by fighting a series of battles with a modded general plus an appropriate enemy, but I'm afraid that isn't me. Maybe when I finish my current campaign I will work on developing my modding skills.
    You have the right attitude - I've had RTW for almost a year but have only finished one full campaign: I keep getting irritated by something, doing a mod to change it, and starting over again. May never even get around to buying BI.
    The truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it. - Mark Twain



  7. #7
    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Investigation of Battle Odds

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    At game start, this is how you would assign the Great Commander trait.

    You have the right attitude - I've had RTW for almost a year but have only finished one full campaign: I keep getting irritated by something, doing a mod to change it, and starting over again. May never even get around to buying BI.
    Well, I finished my campaign and did a little research.

    First, the methodology:

    Looked through various factions at start of map trying to find someone I could mod to set up a few tests. Settled upon a character named "Diggiz", who at the start of the game already has 5 stars but is only a GoodCommander 3. Turns out there was no need to mod him after all. Huns make good testers since they have some money and there is no micromanagement to worry about. Just turned off FOW, turned off "watch AI moves", and hit the "new turn" button until an interesting matchup appeared. You can blend in mercs to try to get just the odds you're looking for. Easy enough to re-start the game of re-load from last turn to tweak the parameters some. All test battles were fought with Diggiz plus 0, 1 or 2 merc horse archers. All battles fought on VH/VH.

    Second, the executive summary:
    - I believe you were correct that the "Strength ratio" in the pre-battle map is equivalent to the variable "BattleOdds".
    - The "Son of Chinglu" turns out to be rather easy to win. You can, in fact, win it with a 3:2 strength ratio in your favor. The relative rarity of it stems from needing a 4 star non faction leader/heir general.
    - You do not need to have 4 stars from the "GoodCommander" line. Ancillaries and other traits count.
    - It is not possible to win more than one "Son of Chinglu" for the huns. Though there is text for ancillaries "Son of Chinglu2" and "Son of Chinglu3", the code was either deliberately or inadvertently written so they can't be awarded when "Son of Chinglu1" is outstanding.

    Raw data:

    Battle 1
    Sarmatians: 91 start, 80 killed
    Diggiz: 125 start, 51 killed
    Strength ratio: 1:1
    Initial assement: Even match
    Victory type: Clear
    Won Chinglu: Yes
    Conclusion: Don't need 4 star in Good Commander line to win Chinglu, can win it with even odds.

    Battle 2
    Rebels: 375 start, 370 killed
    Diggiz: 135 start, 42 killed
    Strength ratio: 3:5
    Initial assement: Defeat distinct
    Victory type: Heroic
    Won Chinglu: Yes
    Conclusion:

    Battle 3
    Rebels: 157 start, 157 killed
    Diggiz: 135 start, 0 killed
    Strength ratio: 10:3
    Initial assement: Forgot to look
    Victory type: Clear
    Won Chinglu: No* (already had won it plus passed it off)
    Conclusion: Proves a "perfect 100-0 victory" does not guarantee "Heroic" (relevant to another thread)

    Battle 4
    Rebels: 495 start, 479 killed
    Diggiz: 135 start, 15 killed
    Strength ratio: 3:4
    Initial assement: Defeat distinct
    Victory type: Heroic
    Won Chinglu: No* (already had won it plus passed it off)
    Conclusion: Can't win more than one Chinglu

    Battle 5
    Sassanids: 307 start, 257 killed
    Diggiz: 135 start, 0 killed
    Strength ratio: 2:1
    Initial assement: Evenly matched
    Victory type: Clear
    Won Chinglu: No
    Conclusion: Chinglu not won w/ Strength Ratio>1.5. Strength ratio = BattleOdds?

    Battle 6
    Sassanids: 307 start, 258 killed
    Diggiz: 81 start, 2 killed
    Strength ratio: 3:2
    Initial assement: Evenly matched
    Victory type: Clear
    Won Chinglu: Yes
    Conclusion: Chinglu can be won with strength ratio in your favor and as high as 1.5. More evidence that Strength = BattleOdds.

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