No, Virginia, there\'s not a Musashi?

[Icarus In Spectacles]

In a book I read recently (I think it was Turnbull's "Lone Samurai") I read that "recent" documentation suggested that the duel between Musashi and Goryu (sp?) as described in Yoshikawa's "Musashi" isn't true, but rather that Musashi showed up with followers, and after M. knocked G. down, they rushed G. and beat him to death.
Has anyone else read this, and if so, do you know if the documentation is genuine or propaganda? The source of this rather disillusioning was not cited in the text I read.
Thanks

[Yagyu Jubei]

I am supposed to be getting some real information on Musashi sometime in April....I subscribe to Kendo World Magazine and they are translating some official biographical information in the next article...I will be happy to share what I can....
You have to remember that Yoshikawa wrote Musashi as a periodical sort of soap opera...It was published first in a magazine in installments, Then put all together later.. It is definately a fictionalized story loosly based on M's life.

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Icarus In Spectacles]

Thanks. That's sounds good. Is Kendo World sold at newstands, or is it more limited in circulation? I knew Yoshikawa was the Margaret Mitchell-san of Japan, but one hopes that Musashi was not one to let others do his dirty work. I guess all angels have dirty faces, what?

[Yagyu Jubei]

That magazine is only avaliable by subscription...the website seems to be having problems of late but here is a link anyway,,,,http://www.kendo-world.com/index.htm
Yeah "Musashi" is considered to be the "Gone With the Wind" of Japan.
Still I would hate to think that Musashi had help...specially with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu island.....

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Kagami Rei]

Quote .. It is definately a fictionalized story loosly based on M's life.

[/B][/QUOTE]

...like the bible.
j/k, no offense to christians or catholics. History is littered with fiction. "Musashi" was a great book, but you can't take it all at face value. Though, "A Book of Five Rings", Musashi's own writings, show how adept he was at strategy and swordplay. He really did use wooden swords in real duels. I don't think he would do such a lowly thing like mob Goryu. Bushido would not allow it.

[Kissaki]

Quote Originally posted by Kagami Rei:
...like the bible.
j/k, no offense to christians or catholics.[/QUOTE]

What, Catholics aren't Christians? Not that I care, I'm Buddhist.

Quote I don't think he would do such a lowly thing like mob Goryu. Bushido would not allow it. [/QUOTE]

Well, Musashi did apparently have the habit of showing up late for his duels, just to piss the other guy off. Bushido was notably different from the European concept of chivalry. Whereas in Europe it was not particularly manly to strike down defenseless people, this was not as prominent in Bushido, which was more focused on how prepared oneself was to either win or die. So as such, whereas it was very honourable to single-handedly defeat a lot of opponents, it was not dishonourable to attack en masse. You just wouldn't collect as much glory, that's all.


In Japan, we beat our wives in public and kiss them in private.
In America, they kiss their wives in public and beat them in private.
-a Japanese student's obseravtions during a trip to the US


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Kissaki

[Kagami Rei]

Hmm...you may be right. I'm a bit rusty on my bushido. I have read about the code in books like "Hagakure", "Budo Shoshinshu", and "Go Rin No Sho (A Book of Five Rings)" but it was a while ago. All I remember is "The way of the warrior is found in death". Basically the idea was to embrace death, not fear it. Since Musashi was ronin, and had no lord, I don't know how bushido would be for him...I just assume that being respectable and honorable was still foremost. Shame was more fearful than death to Samurai, and even some modern japanese families today. It would be very shameful to attack a man on uneven grounds, especially since Musashi's whole reason for living was to find "the way" and perfect his kendo (I think, if I remember correctly). He tried to test his skill against many opponents to find the best style, I don't see why he would waste his time mobbing someone. It would then not be a duel, but an assassination. If he could not win on even grounds, it would mean his swordsmanship would be inferior to his opponent.

But, then again I could be wrong. I'd just hate to find out that the greatest swordsman who ever lived would resort to such tactics. Though, there is nothing wrong with winning any way possible if you look at it from a modern perspective. I guess winning is what matters most in combat or war, not how you do it.

[Kissaki]

Here's a neat Musashi page for you:
http://www.geocities.com/georgemccall/hist.html

According to this page, Musashi was employed in the service of Ogasawara Tadano from 1615-1627, and the service of Hosokawa Tadatoshi, from 1640 till his death in 1645.


The priest Tannen said, "A clever retainer will not advance. However, there are no cases of stupid people coming up in the world either."
-Yamamoto Tsunetomo

[Yagyu Jubei]

The issue has finally arrived! I read some of it last night and I must say that it has some amazing things! Much of the so called history of Musashi has been thrown out the window! I will be back in the next few days to reveal all!

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

[Wishazu]

As far as i know Musashi killed his first man when he was 13 and his last when he was 29. Altogether he killed somewhere in the region of 60 men. as to him using a wooden sword, it wasnt allways so, he only began that practice later in his career but continued to inflict mortal wounds on his enemies.
apparently he was also quite a smelly and dirty person(perhaps the smell helped to put off his adversaries--- )
I dont think he would have had someone mobbed.. it could have been rowdy spectators who decided to finish a beaten man, kinda like modern day hooligans.
there is no denying he was a great swordsman.

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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your toops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical......Sun Tzu the Art of War

[This message has been edited by SuicidalAibo (edited 05-30-2002).]

[Yagyu Jubei]

AS to the battle with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu Isle...according to the Kendo World Magazine.....Musashi showed up on time! He beat Kojiro not with an oar but with an actual bokken, one even longer than Kojiro's "Drying Pole"...It was fair and in front of many officials...No way to have a mob killing with attending officials present.

[Khan7]

Well, my take on duels anyway is that basically there is a time and a place. If you are met with a worthy opponent, if "honor" in the eyes of others is important at the time, or if it is otherwise appropriate, duel straight-up and win or die. However in all other cases fight as dirty as is necessary. To do otherwise would be folly.

The point of it all is manyfold, but largely to simply inspire fear and respect in the eyes of others. Keep that in mind, not some naive perception of "honor".. honor is a tool.

Matt

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[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 06-03-2002).]