Question about skirmish mode

**jbguev** · 12-23-2004, 01:08

As a quick aside, I just experienced my first (and second) suicide general. After playing half a campaign as the Julii and a full long campaign as the Brutii, I had never seen the "suicide general" phenomenon until yesterday.

I am currently playing a long campaign as the Seleucids, a faction I enjoy very much. I am purposefully playing slow (even for me) so that I can build Armored Elephants. Anyway, I had a row of 5 phalanx pikemen units (large size) with each unit arranged four deep. In front of them I deployed 4 units of archers with cataphracts defending my flanks and my general's unit behind the pikemen.

When I started the battle, the Scipii general unit charged straight at my archer units. I thought the archers would retreat like good little skirmishers (skirmish mode was definitely enabled) but no, they just stood there. Much to my surprise, however, the opposing general's unit continued through my archers to impale themselves on the outstretched pikes behind the archers, destroying the entire general's unit. The really strange thing is, the stampeding cavalry only killed 2 archers on their way to immortality.

When I saw it happening, I just stared at the screen. I really thought it was an aberration, but this afternoon it happened again in a different battle against the same foe. This time, however, the charging general's unit took out 25 of my archers in the front unit.

All this, of course, brings me to my question: why didn't the archers retreat when they were being charged by an enemy unit? In my previous battles, the archers seemed to retreat when faced with an advancing foe. Is there some other setting I need to address to make sure this happens, or do they only retreat when facing infantry?

Any observations or knowledge that can be imparted would be most appreciated. Thanks to everyone at the org for their help.

jbguev

**Herakleitos** · 12-23-2004, 01:33

I experienced the exact same thing today, I am playing a German campaign and my unit of chosen archer warband was on skirmish mode but did'nt retreat behind my spearmen. A unit of Scipii roman cavalry ran straight through them and hit the spearmen while I lost only one archer!

I believe in M:TW a unit on skirmish would only take the unit it was targeting into account and ignore other troops rushing towards them, but I recall reading somewhere that now archers and the like are supposed to retreat whenever an enemy unit is too close; most of the time this works quite good in R:TW in my experience...

**Doug-Thompson** · 12-23-2004, 07:01

That's bizzare. It must be because the units were charging the spears -- but why would the unit be charging spears? Even the AI is supposed to calculate the odds.

**Temujin** · 12-23-2004, 10:40

I've seen this happen with or without troops supporting the skirmishers. It just seems like the skirmishers are much slower to react when charged by cavalry.

I think this is deliberate. Movement speeds being what they are, a unit of skirmishers could otherwise occupy a unit of heavy cavalry for far too long on a flank.

That said, there are some real flaws in skirmish mode. Yesterday, I had a unit of slingers get caught by charging gaul swordsmen in the middle of an open plain. Also, skirmishers shouldn't try to evade when separated from the enemy by an impassable obstacle, like a wall or river, but they do.

**HicRic** · 12-23-2004, 11:40

I find skirmish mode is utterly fantastic when it comes to mounted troops (mostly horse archers) but sometimes less than useful with archers. My archers tend to start skirmishing when approached, but are just too slow to get out of the way in time, especially when charged by cavalry, even when they're only just in front of my battle line. I manually retreat them instead-but to say again, the skirmish function is great with horse archers.

**Smaug-V** · 12-23-2004, 12:31

I found the same problem. Though it seems to be the worst with chariot archers. They sometimes skirmish for about a minute, and then stand still and wait for the enemy to come for then. Ive even seen them charge at the enemy, with half their ammo remaining. Didn't do much to reconcile me to chariots.

Smaug

**dedmoroz** · 12-23-2004, 19:42

Welcome to RTW sick AI !!!

**Oaty** · 12-25-2004, 05:05

Noone has noticed the A.I.'s cheap little trick?

The A.I. will always(Kmaybe not always) target a unit behind a unit if it's close enough. They were more than likely actually targeting your spears but the archers slowed there charge down a bit making them easy piecemeal for your pikemen.

This is also probably the reason your archers did'nt skirmish. The archers instantly skirmish when targeted. There is a detection range for skirmishers wich a unit has to be a lot closer to it to cause it to skirmish. Since cavalry move so fast that right when they went to skirmish they got nailed, wich usually stops the unit from skirmishing and forces them to fight.

If you want to have some fun you can really mess with the A.I.
Let them engage your line then take your general and run him right behind your engaged troops from one flank to the other. You will have all there troops swarmed to 1 flank. Now Your troops chased them while they were chasing your general and you have them locked in an L shape line. Now if you have enough spare troops on that other flank you can lock them in a U shape and even possibly completely enveloping them.

It does become annoying at times and the A.I. was succesful ONE time at taking down my general. Notice how I say "1 time". It was due to the fact I was running my general behind there lines and not mine. All enemy troops disengaged and massacred my general.

The A.I.'s agreesion at human controlled generals need's to be toned down as that is the 1 unit that is the most protected by the human. So at least engaged troops don't make a mess of thier lines going after your general. I can understand the A.I. using free troops to chase your general but do'nt make a mess of there lines for a longshot victory.

**jbguev** · 12-26-2004, 06:38

I'm not sure how this quote thing works, so if I screw it up I'll just paraphrase.

Noone has noticed the A.I.'s cheap little trick?

The A.I. will always(Kmaybe not always) target a unit behind a unit if it's close enough. They were more than likely actually targeting your spears but the archers slowed there charge down a bit making them easy piecemeal for your pikemen.

This is also probably the reason your archers did'nt skirmish.

and

I believe in M:TW a unit on skirmish would only take the unit it was targeting into account and ignore other troops rushing towards them, but I recall reading somewhere that now archers and the like are supposed to retreat whenever an enemy unit is too close; most of the time this works quite good in R:TW in my experience...

The second quote from Herakleitos concerning the difference between M:TW and R:TW was my understanding as well. I thought that any enemy unit that passed within a particular distance of a skirmishing unit would cause the skirmisher to retreat, unlike the first quote from oaty above. If anybody else has any suggestions, they would be most appreciated. Thanks to everyone who replied.

jbguev

**Red Harvest** · 12-26-2004, 07:25

I haven't figured out exactly what goes on in skirmish. I think there are multiple things happening. I've suspected the the AI is using the same "target a unit beyond" trick that I used in MTW, like Oaty says. However, the AI also has its "can't stop my shooting cycle" delay as well. It might be one or both (a bit of chicken and the egg.) The AI loves to charge my skirmishers with the general etc. even when it is suicidal to do so (like a phalanx formed behind them.)

On the firing delay effect on skirmish, I admit we "asked for it" because javelins/pila were not getting thrown against advancing infantry--instead the unit would run. This happened in STW and MTW. I still think the answer is to have the unit anticipate throwing and actually release at extreme range *THEN* run away (or charge if pila armed infantry), but instead there are delays on both ends. Part of this is movement speeds, but part of it is the sequencing I believe.

Then again, the AI will suicidally charge its elite archers vs. my hoplites in 1 vs. 1 tests. Hello? Anybody want to tell the AI what those friggin' arrows are there for?

Also, I believe the animation based approach to kill calcs is making lightly armed skirmishers and sometimes peasants tougher to kill with cav than infantry. The loose formations absorb the charge, while the "low density" seems to reduce the number of hits scored by the more compact cav (and elephants can pursue forever without killing skirmisher formations they are in contact with.) Higher density infantry seems to suffer more hits, thereby increasing loss rate assuming favorable stat match ups, while skirmishers are slow to kill (even if they are not causing many casualties among the cav.)