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Thread: Kingdom of Heaven

  1. #31
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    If they called him 'Balain of Ibelin' then how can he not be noble? In the twelfth century, only nobles had patronyms (last names) like Ibelin (the Ibellines were a powerful family; I believe they give their name to the Ghibellines, those who supported the emperors as opposed to those who supported the popes [the Guelphs] in Italy).

    My point: if the man's name is Balain of Ibelin, he can't be a 'humble blacksmith'.

    Moreover, Jerusalem fell to Muslims under Saladin in 1187. If Bloom is really to fight Christians in Jerusalem, then that'll all have to occur before 1187, which was also the date of the Battle of Hattin (which, it seems, the movie WILL show-- we seem to have a shot of Saladin and the Crusaders preparing for Hattin).
    I think this is right: the film is the Period leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem to Saladin. Thus, there should be all sorts of Crusader intrigue and the foolishness of Hattin.

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  2. #32

    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Does anyone know who the silver faced person is supposed to be? Was there someone in history famous for that kind of makeup?

  3. #33
    kortharig werkschuw tuig Member the Count of Flanders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Does anyone know who the silver faced person is supposed to be? Was there someone in history famous for that kind of makeup?
    I *think* that would be Baldwin, the leper king.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    That would explain the mask...

  5. #35
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    That would explain the mask...
    And a pretty queer looking mask at that. When I first saw the trailer I thought the figure in the mask was a woman! I think the costume designer got a little carried away.
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  6. #36

    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Im glad a film about the crusades is being made but historicla epics have been so hit and miss lately that im abit weary. Observe Alexander *shudders*

    I love the crusades history and the bravery of the men involved but despise it for its greed 4th crusade, being a byzantine history fanatic lol the 4th crusade understandably annoys me.

    Im more than abit annoyed that Orlando Bloom is in it Hollywoods latest whore to saturate cinema with, seems to be in every movie these days.

    I just hope they dont ruin it with massive historical inaccuracy and desperate attempts to outdo gladiator.

    Ive heard that alot of muslims are annoyed by this movie already which is also annoying, im sure they arent the biggest fans of the crusades lol but its a massive! part of european history and more than worhty of being told i just hope its not biased or wrecked to please most western audiences hence my annoyance at Orlando Bloom being in it.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    If you goto the official website you see Jeremy Irons play Tiberias? Who is Tiberias. It sounds Byzantine.
    http://www.kingdomofheavenmovie.com/

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  8. #38
    Evil Sadist Member discovery1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Wasn't Tiberias a city on the border of the southern most Crusader kingdom. Was the first to fall under siege during Sals big push against the Crusaders.


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  9. #39
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    I just read the cast list from IMDB and it says that Edward Norton is King Baldwin IV which means he's the guy in the mask in the trailer.
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  10. #40
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    That mask isn't queer!! It's awesome. I wish I had a mask like that.


    Overall I'm groing weary of these period peaces. We've had like 4 last year and now some more. Will they at least try to space them out a little. I'm getting sick of long battles and crappy dialogue.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Longshanks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    If they called him 'Balain of Ibelin' then how can he not be noble? In the twelfth century, only nobles had patronyms (last names) like Ibelin (the Ibellines were a powerful family; I believe they give their name to the Ghibellines, those who supported the emperors as opposed to those who supported the popes [the Guelphs] in Italy).

    My point: if the man's name is Balain of Ibelin, he can't be a 'humble blacksmith'.

    Moreover, Jerusalem fell to Muslims under Saladin in 1187. If Bloom is really to fight Christians in Jerusalem, then that'll all have to occur before 1187, which was also the date of the Battle of Hattin (which, it seems, the movie WILL show-- we seem to have a shot of Saladin and the Crusaders preparing for Hattin).
    From what I've read in reviews from those who have been to the test screening, they made him the illegitimate son of the noble Godfrey of Ibelin, played by Liam Neeson. So he's noble by blood but raised in a peasant background. The historical Balian's father was also named Balian, the film probably changed it to Godfrey to avoid confusion. Godfrey was the father of Balian I. They also seem to have combined the historical Balian with his brother Baldwin, who was involved with Sybilla. Instead the film leaves Baldwin out and gives Balian the romance.

    Also some of the film reviews are incorrect...Bloom isn't fighting the Christians, he is fighting the Muslims. Just like the historical Balian he survives Hattin to lead the defense of Jerusalem. I think the bit in the trailer where he is saying, "rise a knight" is when he knights all the children of nobles over 13 for the defense of the city. Jerusalem is the final battle in the movie, and it doesn't follow Balian during the Third Crusade when he served Richard the Lionheart.

  12. #42
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Longshanks
    From what I've read in reviews from those who have been to the test screening, they made him the illegitimate son of the noble Godfrey of Ibelin, played by Liam Neeson. So he's noble by blood but raised in a peasant background.
    Aaahhh. Ok, that's not too bad then.

    Are you sure the last part is the siege of Jerusalem? It looked like they were firing all those trebuchets at Acre, not Jerusalem. I thought it might conclude with the siege of Acre on the Third Crusade. Does that mean that all those siege towers and trebuchets are Saladin's? I thought I saw some Christian banners in amongst them; I'll check later on.
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  13. #43
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Ok, tried to see tonight but the darn trailer is just too small. I can't be sure of the identity either of the city or the besiegers, so it appears the movie may well end with the siege of Jerusalem. But did Saladin have that many trebuchets at the siege?

    Darn, I was hoping to see Acre.
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  14. #44
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Given the amount of resources he had at his disposal by that point methinks he could've had about as many as he felt were necessary...
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  15. #45
    Man behind the screen Member Empirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Balian of Ibelin was in fact one of the most important barons in the kingdom of Jerusalem around the time of Saladin. One of the leaders of the baronial party, he worked against Guy of Lusignan's ascent to the throne. Nevertheless, he supported the new king when it became clear that Saladin was bound to attack the kingdom. The Ibelins were one of the most distinguished noble dynasties in the crusader states, later even claiming the kingship of Cyprus (when most Latin Christian possessions on the mainland were lost).
    Sibyl was one of the two daughters of Amalric (NOT Almaric!!!), elder brother of Baldwin IV., who was called the Leper King. She was NOT supposed to impart the throne to her husband, coz Baldwin IV. had a son, also called Baldwin (V.). That son was sickly and died at five, shortly after Baldwin IV.'s demise. The succession had been agreed upon in advance: Should Baldwin V. die without an heir, the count of Tripoli was to take over the regency until a conclave of the pope, the English and French kings and the Holy Roman Emperor were to agree on a suitable candidate. It was seen as likely that the count of Tripoli would be that "suitable candidate", since he was related to the royal house himself.
    Sibyl was married to Guy of Lusignan, who seems to have been kind of a womanizer, and who was originally supposed to marry her sister. It seems both girls' mother had a crush on him, too: he seems to have had good looks, but not much brains. So I think Marton Csokas with his rather sinister looks isn't so well cast in his role. The old queen mother was bedding the Patriarch of Jerusalem at the same time, and those guys were closely affiliated with the Grand Master of the Templars. This troupe staged a veritable coup d'état, violating the dead Leper King's will, and crowned Sibyl and Guy queen and king of Jerusalem. The count of Tripoli and Balian of Ibelin tried to stop them, but in the end only the count remained intransigent, while Balian bowed before the king.

    If I were to make a movie about the whole affair, it would feature count Raymond of Tripoli prominently, as a tragic hero trying to do what is right, and ending up in a moral dilemma between a dead king's will, his own ambition and the well-being of the kingdom.

    Sorry for the long post, but the downfall of the kingdom of Jerusalem is endlessly fascinating to me. One of the most intriguing subject matters medieval history has to offer!
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  16. #46
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    There is a new trailer for Kingdom of Heaven released this week. It is much longer that the previous one that I saw. I'm a bit disappointed at the mass knighting of servants prior to the climactic battle. Seems a bit too Hollywoodish (duh!).


    You can find the trailer here: Kingdom of Heaven trailer
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  17. #47
    Boondock Saint Senior Member The Blind King of Bohemia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    The battles look amazing but Saladin crossing into syria before the battle of Hattin with 200,000 men! Where the hell did they get that from! Even if they are talking about his siege of Jerusalem he would have had a maximum of 50,000 men. Those numbers are insane

  18. #48
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Yes, 200,000 is a massive exaggeration. I beleive the best estimate put Saladin's army at about 30,000.

    However, medieval chroniclers were prone to exaggeration, especially of the enemy's numbers; there are crusading chronicles that estimate the number of Turks and others at various battles as 60,000, 100,000, even 200,000 and more. What I'm trying to say is that it is not that anachronistic to portray a medieval Christian estimating Saladin's army at 200,000, although surely it would be anachronistic if the movie actually shows Saladin with 200,000 troops.
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  19. #49
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    Maybe Scott(?) had some left over money in his budget and said "What the heck, let's buy another 150,000 men!" Or more likely he thought "Pellinor Fields had 100,000? Let's up the anty make our army with 200,000!" I think 150,000 of those men must be manning the trebauchets.


    I make jokes, but I'm still hoping it is at least an entertaining movie. From this trailer, it at least looks to be that.
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  20. #50
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    I posted the trailer to this over a month ago. Whats this ?
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  21. #51
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    I thought this was a newer trailer Gawain. The IGN.com story about it was dated April 6. If it is old, then my apologies.
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  22. #52

    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    It looks great to me, but i liked gladiator and ive heard that movie torn apart more times than i can remember on these boards..

  23. #53
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    I thought this was a newer trailer Gawain. The IGN.com story about it was dated April 6. If it is old, then my apologies.
    No you are correct this is a newer one. However its still the same topic. Hey I cant expect everyone to remember what I posted a month ago. I guess im just an attention seeker
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  24. #54
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom of Heaven

    It looks great to me, but i liked gladiator and ive heard that movie torn apart more times than i can remember on these boards..
    Ditto. I know its terribly unhistorical, but does that make it a bad movie?

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