Thanks for nothing, spy

[ElGuapo]

Before the last siege on the last Greek city, my Egyptian spy managed to open the gates. Seeing as my army is 80% cavalry/chariots, I gleefully attack the open gates without any siege equipment (incidentally, it would be nice if, as in M:TW, you could dismount calvary before an attack). Resistance is very light, a few hoplites.

So, I'm approaching the open gates of the stone walled city and rush in two units of cav to take the gates. Yeah, guess what comes next.

Flaming death from buckets of boiling oil rain down and wipe out a lot of my charnign cav. After going through the gates, I assume they are taken. Nope. The next group through gets chewed up to.

Is this a bug, or do you need to take the TOP of gates in stone walls to capture it?

Oh, and by the way, thanks for nothing, spy-boy.

[ibejeph]

Yup, you need to take the "top" of the gatehouse, otherwise you'll get clobbered by burning oil. It makes sense to wait a turn, build a siege tower or two or ladders and a ram. With the seige tower, take the walls and run your guys over the top of the gatehouse and it's yours. If your spy wasn't able to open the gate that turn, you can now use your ram. Wait until you've take the gatehouse before sending the ram, otherwise you'll get a bunch of deep friend soldiers. Of course, this only applies to stone or better walls. Wooden ones have no gatehouses or burning oil.

[Zorn]

If you have taken the gatehouse, the gate will open for your troops anyway, so you need neither a ram nor a spy.

[KiOwA]

The spy should also disable the gatehouse when he successfully manages to open it. Otherwise, it makes no real sense to depend on the spy to open gates.

[Red Harvest]

The spy should also disable the gatehouse when he successfully manages to open it. Otherwise, it makes no real sense to depend on the spy to open gates.

Yeah, we had a good discussion about this earlier. There are a number of approaches that make sense: no working oil at an open gate or at least a delay before the oil starts to work (since it is a surprise attack and they would have to stoke a fire rapidly to heat the oil.) Another suggestion was that the defenders should start out randomly scattered about the walls or within buildings and not be positioned properly at the start. Afterall, when the AI sallies the player is stuck in a position of the computer's choosing.

The usefulness of a spy to open gates is certainly terribly diminished by the oil issue. Most defended walled cities that actually succumbed to siege actually fell to treachery from what I've read. While bribing a garrison is a fair representation, a spy opening the gates could be made a bit more "real."

[The_Mark]

Yeah, we had a good discussion about this earlier. There are a number of approaches that make sense: no working oil at an open gate or at least a delay before the oil starts to work (since it is a surprise attack and they would have to stoke a fire rapidly to heat the oil.) Another suggestion was that the defenders should start out randomly scattered about the walls or within buildings and not be positioned properly at the start. Afterall, when the AI sallies the player is stuck in a position of the computer's choosing.

The usefulness of a spy to open gates is certainly terribly diminished by the oil issue. Most defended walled cities that actually succumbed to siege actually fell to treachery from what I've read. While bribing a garrison is a fair representation, a spy opening the gates could be made a bit more "real."

Good points. Wonder if they're going to fix this in the next patch?

But really, that would make much more sense, and maybe have the attack during nighttime, haven't seen any of those battles in SP. It is, after all, a surprise attack.

And yes, it is suicide to attack the gates, more so if they have a phalanx blocking the gateway. If they don't, well, you CAN storm through the oil but it will cause casualties.

[Red Harvest]

But really, that would make much more sense, and maybe have the attack during nighttime, haven't seen any of those battles in SP. It is, after all, a surprise attack.

You read my mind. Most of the gate openings I have read about occurred at night. It would be nice to have a 33 to 50% chance of this being a night battle. Night gate openings was one reason for scattering the troops about the city. It would represent the troops having to leave their barracks. Hmmm...that gives me another idea. Have troop types adjacent to appropriate structures when battle begins (cavalry at stables, infantry at barracks, etc.) except for a single unit each in the vicinity of each of the gates or on a wall. If the defender is lucky, they might have a phalanx unit close enough to block the hole. If they are unlucky they might have townwatch or peasants as the only nearby unit.

I've not found any modifiers for night fighting in stats, so CA does not appear to have ever really contemplated night battles. I could see specialty units like those night raiders getting big bonuses for night warfare, while ranged units like archers should get really lousy missile attack values.

[Simetrical]

Well, presumably you'd always keep one or two decent units around the walls if possible. And really, gate-opening should only occur when a whole unit betrays the enemy—really, how do those things stay open? The traitorous unit would then try to arrange for themselves to be the only ones near the gatehouse, and they would defect to your side at the start of the battle. You would get to deploy, but the enemy wouldn't, and it would take a minute or two for him to gather up his troops. Honestly, how does your spy stick the door open so that nobody can close it?

-Simetrical

[Ar7]

To add to symetricals question, how does he keep all four of them open

[HicRic]

He opens the doors really, really quietly and then runs around killing anyone who notices them open, of course.

What's more annoying about the oil is the way your unit clusters directly under where it's poured, and then only send a couple of men at a time through the gate. And then the guys that do make it through rout, run straight back out, and have more oil tipped on them...

[Khorak]

Your 'spy' is actually a network of spies, and it says as much when you infiltrate a city, with the percent chance that your SPIES will open the gates.

[Red Harvest]

Yeah, the spy is an agent, not a commando. Historically agents like these worked with mercenaries or political opponents or ethnic groups that might be willing to open the gates and betray the garrison, fellow citizens, or both. It could be groups of mercs opening a gate...or even troops from another city, or it could be citizens/citizen militia opposed to the garrison. In reality the guards in the region were often dispatched while the "insiders" held a position long enough for the besiegers to enter and relieve them. In some cases simple self preservation motivated them. By turning over the city they could often guarrantee that their own lives, families, and friends would be spared. Remember, successful sieges often ended in starvation, then slaughter, and the "lucky" survivors were likely to be raped and sold into slavery.

Really only one or perhaps two gates should be opened. At the moment, it really doesn't matter as much as it should, because you have that blasted oil to contend with.

[Sin Qua Non]

He opens the doors really, really quietly and then runs around killing anyone who notices them open, of course.

So my spy must play a lot of Splinter Cell.

[LordKhaine]

Remember that having a spy in the city lets you move the camera around inside the city. So you can at least see exactly where the defenders are.

He doesn't just open gates (though by the look of the gates, he seems to smash them down instead of merely opening them)

[Simetrical]

How? TNT?

Guard 1: Hmm. What's that noise down there?
Guard 2: Sounds like a sledgehammer.
Guard 1: Why is someone using a sledgehammer on the gates?
Guard 2: *leans over* Why are you using a sledgehammer on the gates?
Spy: Oh, I was just reinforcing them in case of an assault.
Guard 2: Okay. That makes sense.
*loud clang*
Guard 1: What was that?
Guard 2: Sounded like an iron-bound gate falling over.
Guard 1: Why did an iron-bound gate fall over?
Guard 2: *leans over* Why did that iron-bound gate just fall over?
*silence*
Guard 1: Hmm. Since when are sledgehammers used to reinforce things, anyway?
*more silence*
Guard 1: Now what's that?
Guard 2: Sounds like the besiegers are massing for an assault.
Guard 1: While we have no gate?
Guard 2: Yeah, that's right.
Guard 1: . . . Okay. You sound the alarm, and I'll start heating the oil.

-Simetrical

[master of the puppets]

about keeping the gate open, many medieval and roman gates were chain or sinue held so that the gates could swing shut at a moments notice. the spy/spies cut the chain and the heavy metyal gate can't by closed by anything short of 5 mens combined strengh....of course many large armies had more than 5 mens strengh...uh i'll get back to you

[Red Harvest]

How? TNT?

Nope, reread my post. The spy is an agent. He doesn't do the handiwork himself...he finds others to do it. But don't take my word for it, read about the Punic Wars, etc. and form an opinion. Quite a few cities changed hands through various forms of treachery. I can find no reason to expect a "successful" gate opening would leave the gate tower defended. Typically the guards at the gate were either murdered or part of the treachery. Either way, the gate defenses will not be operable at the start.

[KiOwA]

We're forgetting perhaps the greatest example of all: Sinon opening the gates of Troy, and signalling the hidden Greek fleet to come in and sack the city.

[master of the puppets]

what about the battle of marathon the greatest threat to athens was just as much the persians laying seige as people betraying within the walls and opening the gate to the persians.

[Simetrical]

Nope, reread my post.

I wasn't responding to your post. I was responding to LordKhaine's remark that "by the look of the gates, [the spy] seems to smash them down instead of merely opening them." This is, I'm sure you'll agree, quite ridiculous unless the spy murders the guards as well—but if he does, surely your army would race in immediately, before the enemy has a chance to retake the gates. In that case, as you say, the gate defenses would be inoperable at the start.

Really, the defender shouldn't be allowed to deploy at the start of an assault. Some of his troops would be positioned on the walls automatically, especially around the gates, but the rest would have to rush to the walls from the streets or their barracks. As it is, there would be no way to implement the idea that the defender wouldn't start in control of the gate, because he'd just position his troops right next to it.

-Simetrical

[Khorak]

"Hey! What are you doing!?"
"We're testing the gates tolerances for when the enemy attack!"
"Oh...right. Carry on."
*BOOM!*
"Yeah see? If this had been an enemy battering ram they'd have busted right on through! Well blow me, there they are now!"

[Kraxis]

General: "Ahhh... Our spy has returned. Do you have anything interesting to tell us?"
Spy: "Why of course your greatness. I have managed to smash open all four gates."
General: *Jumps to his feet* "Are you telling me the city is open for assault right now?"
Spy: "Indeed your powerfulness..."
General: "CHAAAAAARGE!!!!"

After the battle

General: "Now my little spyfriend, how come you opened the gates but didn't keep the guards from the oil? We lost an entire contingent of Companions."
Spy: "With respect, your excellency, I could hardly do that and open the gates at the same time."
General: *rolling eyes* "So you couldn't stop the oil, but you could smash open four very big and heavy reinfoced iron gates? Is there a chance you had a little help from within?"
Spy: "Not at all your superiorness, I had to work through the night with my Helvetian Army dagger. *With hushed voice* In the Secret Police version it contains a pocket-ram perfect for breaking open gates when nobody is looking. It is standard issue in the Seleucid Secret Police."
General: "In that case, why in the name of Alexander didn't you tell us that the oil was burning?!?!"
Spy: "Well you didn't ask..."
General: "ARGGGHHHH!"