Between a Rock and a Hard Place

**Hold Steady** · 12-31-2004, 09:10

I'm playing a slight modified (50k extra for AI players starting capital) expert Early HRE. It's now about 1119 AD, and I conquered the Italian mainland, along with the papacy, since the exalted didn't like my feud with the French (we have been hopping over to each other's lands oh say since the beginning of time). We all know how we get punished for every land we want to get back, while the AI can walk all over the place with no harm done. Anyhow, aside from that, I'm at war with the Hungarians too. Oh, and the Italians reappeared in rebel-held Corsica (of all places) with tree stacks men at arms and no ship, so it's declared zombie island. There rather docile, sitting there, probably hasn't got any money to build ship, since the upkeep of his army is a trifle more than great whopping money hoard Corsica can muster.
Yesterday evening, I decided to finish of the French, hope to last the peace with the English (in Vain, probably), so I can dedicate my effords to finish of the Hungarians, finally hop over to Denmark and produce my some huscarls or something. I invaded Isle the France, Flanders and Champagne succesfully, the first two under siege now. Then I invaded Toulouse, where the King resided. I had a fine battle there, although I lost a good deal of Men-at-arms.. The AI fought a very good battle on a rather large downhill slope with a lot of archers.. I thought I killed the King, but perhaps the Heir that still lives in Isle the france now got the power. But when I thought the French were finished, they had a loyalist rebellion in Flanders, half a stack of men at arms!
Now the Next turn, the exhalted one comes back to Rome and Naples (from which I retreated a few years ago, anticipating anysuch, not wanting to get of a wrong start with him, so the rebel Romans and the Sicilians are in heavy troublesome waters) with 6+ stack of Men-at-Arms, County militia and archers and some Royal Knights.

But so am I. The HRE empire is stretched extremely thin. I'm having nothing but peasant or spearmen garrisons, all the better troops are needed to ward of the Hungarians and this new French threat. I could manage to kill the French King next turn by storming Paris Castle, rendering the stack of Men-at-arms a rebel no-thread, but in Tuscany and the papal States, all the way up to Saxony, there is maybe one stack of troops available, which are supposed to defend my Hungarian, Polish and Danish Border, so how in (&^&(^% name am I supposed to stop the Pope from expanding northwards? Even the ^%$%$# HORDE would have a hard one on this..

**Ash** · 12-31-2004, 09:51

Originally Posted by Hold Steady

I'm playing a slight modified (50k extra for AI players starting capital) expert Early HRE.

How about giving yourself 50k now? Or not giving 50k to the AI at all?

**Hold Steady** · 12-31-2004, 10:24

Originally Posted by Ash

How about giving yourself 50k now? Or not giving 50k to the AI at all?

You're right. I chose this myself, I shouldn't be complaining.. I know, but I thought, I'll pour out my predicament, perhaps a bit of compassion among my fellow men eh? Thought I 'needed' the extra challenge, and it perhaps would stop the AI from only sending peasants. Well the answer on 'no' to the first, though the amount of peasants is now better..

**TwinMfg** · 12-31-2004, 18:12

Sounds like you expanded a bit too fast. I seem to do that all the time. But, that doesn't help you now. If you have the $$ buy lots of mercs. If you can't do that, you may need to retreat a little to consolidate your forces.

Are you actually at war with the pope? If not, leave a small army there as a deterrent and go have some Froglegs. If you're at war, then see above paragraph. And next time, pull out of the pope-held provinces and let them rebel before the pope returns; IIRC, he won't be at war with you then, when he returns.

Third option: borrow some of that $50K you gave your allies.

**Accounting Troll** · 12-31-2004, 21:41

You need a quick victory against the French by storming Paris Castle so that you can free up some of your troops. Don't auto resolve because the French king will probably survive. When you have destroyed the French royal family, divert some of your troops to your Italian and Hungarian borders and use your emissaries to bribe the rebel provinces. Don't divert too many of your troops because sooner or later the English are going to attack you.

This stage of the campaign is always going to be hard for you since an AI faction uses the 50k starting cash to build up a large army which its provinces cannot support, so it has to invade somebody.

Even if you give economic development a high priority, the HRE simply cannot afford to adequately defend all its frontier provinces, especially since there is no way to totally eradicate the Papacy. I would pursue a military strategy of combining relatively inexpensive garrisons with 3-4 field armies, the idea being to swiftly retake land that I lose rather than prevent the loss in the first place.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 01-01-2005, 04:01

I know how you feel, HS. The HRE has a near impossible starting position. You don't get any good generals, everybody seems to gang up on you almost right from the start and your armies take forever to get from one place to another with all those landlocked provinces. Which also are impossible to defend all at the same time, provoking endless invasions from all sides.

The one M:TW game I lost was playing as the HRE

It was a total blast though. Have fun with your game, if the HRE survives the first few decades you're in a good position to kick some ass.

**OlafTheBrave** · 01-01-2005, 05:01

I belive rushing Italy is the best option followed by immediatly going into Pomerania nad Prussia. All the while building up for when France invades. When France invades take what you can but stop short of eleminating them and stretching yourself thin, or is that thinner LOL. I have found that some how doing all this agressivness aleviates the Danes need to send those 6 or so units of RKs off into Saxony although you have drawn it down somewaht. Poland may buck up but they dont have enough provinces to truly be a threat. Once the Above stated is done I like to wade south into the boot of Italy and de-nut the Pope for the rest of the game. You may have to take the Papal States and build a fort and then let them have it and run them out of Rome to accomplish this. It just deppends on what his holliness has done.

I try to play GA but I may take known GA goals before they are presented if the time is right. Rember before you get your legs under you you are nothing but a paper tiger and the AI knows it.

**Pericles** · 01-01-2005, 05:39

Yes, have fun.

Isn't it great to have your butt kicked by the AI?

Your situation gives you all types of strategies to pursue.

If you fail this time, then look forward to starting again.

Oh, and give the AI factions 100,000 Florins.

That'll really keep you on your toes for sure - heheh

best of luck

**ichi** · 01-01-2005, 06:04

Couple of ideas.

You can develop a nice income with Zombie Island get some ships and start trading with Italy. As the HRE you need to have control of the northern seas, even if no one will trade with you, so that you can leave your coastal provinces less well defended and to reduce enemy trade income. To a lesser extent you need ships in the Mediterranian seas.

When you left Rome and the Papal States I hope that you blackened the earth, destroying all of the buildings before retreating.

While a constant expansion is always nice, sometimes the HRE takes one two steps forward then one step back. As England or the Danes I hate it if I lose a province I have oconquered, but with the Germans it is to be expected. If you fight you own battles you can either make an orderly retreat or, better yet, use that defensive position to make the attacker pay dearly, thus leaving him less able to withstand you counterattack in a few years. If it looks like you might lose a province or two destroy all the buildings in them also before you get pushed back. The key here is to keep your core provinces pumping out better quality troops.

Better troops mean that you can hold with fewer men, therefore lower costs.

I always try to reduce the number of provinces that border enemies or potential enemies, so if you can clear out western Europe by eliminating the French then I recommend that. Beef up Flanders and Saxony (? the province due south of Denmark) then focus on the Huns.

ichi

**_Aetius_** · 01-01-2005, 19:32

The hre is a nightmare to play as sometimes, alot of the time though, cutting your loses is the best thing to do, gather your forces and do what needs to be done, having armies left right and centre, trying to defend indefensible frontiers equals that in the end your going to have such a gap in your frontier when an enemy smashes through it that your not going to be able to mass an army to stop them.

Hmmm theres to many variables involved to give a definitive answer to your problems we cant anticipate the AI's movements.

You either have to gamble everything or hope for the best in my opinion.

You either throw everything at your enemies immediately and i mean immediately in hope of a decisive crushing victory so that troops can be diverted/retrained to help fighting off the papacy, or just hope you can afford to keep your troops fighting hungary in the east, and hope the papacy doesnt go mental on you.

Being aggressive a general myself, im not in any mood to sit around hoping that itll all turn out ok, Id much rather go into an attack and lose the empire that way than let the frickin pope of all people take provinces thus sending me into civil war. Throw everything you can possibly muster at your current enemies, try and crush them with as much haste as possible, then whats left pour into the south to defend against the pope.

If moneys a big problem sell all buildings that just arent necessary at that ,moment to train garrison armies to stop your empire rebelling.

Im not to sure what else to say its a good Q are you actually at war with the pope? or is it you just dont have an alliance with him? and give us a troop count, how many men does your empire have, how many of those are your imperial armies the ones that do all the conquest not garrisons, and where are they situated in the empire?

Hmm im in the mood for the HRE now im gonna start a new game on expert with them bwhahaha.

**Hold Steady** · 01-03-2005, 11:26

Hi Guys,

In answer to your kind help, here's an update to the situation. I'm not at war with the pope, since I indeed pulled out to revolt Naples and Rome, just in time, and luckily, that's exaclty where the Pope landed. The Sicilians attacked Naples so are at war with me (damn mediteranian shipping for the next 20 years) and Rome was in Rebel hands. Then the Papal army decended from the skies, utterly smashing the garrisons. I blackened the earth, except for the castle in Rome (couldn't bring myself to it.. there are no spear shops to train anything...).
Bad news, the French king is probably in Brittany, for I cannot find him. I kept Toulouse (Wary of them Aragonese, though their multi stack armies are predominantly archers. Somehow this idea of giving my enemies 50 k is becoming less and less brilliant, to say the least) and Isle the France, in both I have a decent army, say both have 1 and a half FMAA, 1 and a half archer, 1 or 2 Urban militia, a royal knight, perhaps one has a mounted sarge and both have either 1 or 2 spearmen or a feudal sarge. Pretty balanced, but not much. In Friesland and Lorraine I have about the same. A border garrison in Saxony has two spearmen, a Slav warrior, an archer and an Urban militia. Same for Brandenburg (border Poland, their being friendly) and Bohemia (bordering both Poland and Hungarians). In Austria and Venice (bordering Hungarians) I have a more mixed thing with archer, militia sergants, vikings (mercs), urban militia, spearmen, Slav warriors, and some mounted Sarges, and both an Heir with say 10 RK's). Looks much, but they're not all complete. It's big enough to hold the border and kick jobbagy ass, but can't miss much. To the south, there is some rubble holding the papal states, not even 250 men of very mixed origin, the remnants of the army that conquered Italy. In Tuscany there are maybe 4 units now, acting as a garrison, along with my King.
Brandenburg and Sabia are producing FMAA. Burgundy produces RK or Feudal Sarge or Mounted Sarge. Switserland and Austria produce archers. The rest produce Urban militia or Spearmen or Slav warriors. Am upgrading along the way.. Hope to hold on to Toulouse and Isle the france. All will depend on if I can defeat or severely dimish the French threat in Flanders. I think he will attack me in Isle the France. And I hope me pulling back from Chamapgne will either make him split his forces or create a rebel uprising there..
The Pope, well, he seems happy sitting in Rome. My men in Tuscany and papal states are practising their most conspiquous grin and whistles.

**_Aetius_** · 01-04-2005, 01:51

The situation seems abit better considering your latest update, the big problem i see is you have no hard hitting army that you can rely on to fight your wars, having an empire of garrison class armies wont hold the frontiers forever, 1 enemy with a decent amount of heavy cav and infantry will steamroll them no problem.

You need professional armies, how developed is switzerland? when i got the hre switzerland is developed to a citedal in no time, swiss halberdiers are great, plus swabia for swabian swordsmen, if you have armies of them then your fine.

Just use this relative calm, to rebuild and expand your armies, territorial expansion shouldnt be attempted in fact if anything sacrificing some of your less necessary territories might be a good idea. Consolidation is whats needed, if you regroup youll be much harder to break down, its still hard to give proper solutions because most of the area in and around your empire from your description sounds in ruins and a mess lol.

So rebuild, regroup, consolidate, and most importantly train advanced troops.

**Hold Steady** · 01-05-2005, 08:58

Originally Posted by _Aetius_

The situation seems abit better considering your latest update, the big problem i see is you have no hard hitting army that you can rely on to fight your wars, having an empire of garrison class armies wont hold the frontiers forever, 1 enemy with a decent amount of heavy cav and infantry will steamroll them no problem.

You need professional armies, how developed is switzerland? when i got the hre switzerland is developed to a citedal in no time, swiss halberdiers are great, plus swabia for swabian swordsmen, if you have armies of them then your fine.

Just use this relative calm, to rebuild and expand your armies, territorial expansion shouldnt be attempted in fact if anything sacrificing some of your less necessary territories might be a good idea. Consolidation is whats needed, if you regroup youll be much harder to break down, its still hard to give proper solutions because most of the area in and around your empire from your description sounds in ruins and a mess lol.

So rebuild, regroup, consolidate, and most importantly train advanced troops.

Thx, doing most of that, butta, Halbs? aren't those high and late only?

**Hold Steady** · 01-05-2005, 09:16

The French attacked Friesland, off all places! With two stacks of troops and a 4 star king (He was in Flanders or came by sea from Brittany. What I wouldn't give for the English to attack the French..). My mixed but small army didn't stand even a chance of severely damaging this kind of numbers of Men at arms, so I decided to pull back, having a defensive line now in Saxony (allready reasonably garrisonned with a men at arms, a viking, a few spear and Urbans and archers, so together with reinforcements from brandenburg This will probably make a bit of a stand, Lorraine also has a bit of an army and (Franconia? the province below saxony) can be filled with that of Friesland. Then his two stacks face three of my armies. IIRC, the AI won't attack with everything leaving no garrison on one of three opposing armies, but more divide his armies.

The Aragonese have attacked Toulouse with a four star prince with RK's a few peasants, urbans and hordes of Archers. Think I'll choose a nice spot in the woods, There his archers and RK's will be nullified and my one and a half unit of FMAA and a Feudal Sarge and a Urban militia must be able to make a succesfull stand, only trouble is to run after them archers with armoured FMAA is a bit of a drag..