Does the AI really use tactics?

**djsway** · 01-03-2005, 20:13

I'm wondering, does the AI actually uses tactics or just throw waves of units at you? I have notice it tries to go after weaker units such as archers.

**Theodoret** · 01-03-2005, 20:29

It uses tactics.

I've seen flanking manouvres a few times (although they are a bit clumsy), and I know from bitter experience that the AI likes to force you to engage his infantry in forest when playing Carthage vs. Gaul fights. The AI is particularly good at handling horse archers/archer chariots because it can micromanage many units simultaneously.

The AI is no Napoleon mind you, so I'm not too surprised that people have garnered the impression that it just flings troops at you.

**aw89** · 01-03-2005, 20:56

ive seen it try to make me intercept "flanking" units, they just hold several units ready (cav) and try to make you attack the bait, quite clever actually...

**Red Harvest** · 01-03-2005, 22:09

It uses a few ploys, but the tactics are weak and AI strategy once in battle is also weak. It will charge the archers/skirmishers in front of your line...even if doing so is suicidal. It also likes to charge its archers as if they were melee at times. It seems to be either overly aggressive, or overly passive (when it stands there and lets you cut it down.) Given the choice it will march it's slow phalanx units at your fast light skirmshers instead of engaging melee units.

When the lines meet, the AI often turns many of its units trying to find the supposed best tactical match up at the last moment. This creates mass disorder in its ranks (and yours if you try to do 1 vs 1 match ups rather than a "march through" order.) It should be arranging its battle line ahead of this rather than waiting until the lines meet. "Intercept course" headings really cause chaos when this happens.

**Dutch_guy** · 01-03-2005, 22:22

if they deploy, they always do it the same way. en never use their skirmishers
the correct way ( they always skirmish the wrong way when charged, always away from the main battle line. at least the numidians do that alot in my gamews. )
and they only flank with javelin cavalry, if they flank at all.
but I have never ever seen the AI do any hard tactical maneuvers (?)and also I've never seen them deploy in any other way than the 3 line formation.
this al is on the medium / very hard (battle/ map )

**Spino** · 01-03-2005, 22:44

Originally Posted by djsway

I'm wondering, does the AI actually uses tactics or just throw waves of units at you? I have notice it tries to go after weaker units such as archers.

The tactical AI seems to use very basic tactics until your army gets within a certain range whereupon it seemingly loses its mind. Fortunately when on the defensive the tactical AI, despite its incessant marching, countermarching and rotating seems to do a better job of holding a position and is certainly smart enough to know when to beat a hasty retreat. But to my eyes the AI in RTW appears to be less concerned with overall tactics than it did in Medieval. Unlike Medieval I rarely ever see RTW's tactical AI take its army on wide sweeping marches to its left or its right in order to gain a good angle on my flanks, especially with regards to its cavalry which now seems positively obsessed with frontal charges. I think the root of the problem is that the tactical AI is far too concerned with unit on unit matchups than it is with the bigger picture. With each AI unit acting according to its own internal decision making processes you can see why the AI's units rarely engage your own frontline troops in unision, thus creating the impression that it is deliberately attacking in waves. Furthermore the developers have told us that all units weigh the pros & cons of engaging the unit to their front which is probably why we've seen an AI attack stop just short of our front line and dawdle about a bit before its units attack, often individually or in small groups.

Yes, the AI also has an unhealthy obsession with skirmisher and light infantry units such as archers. It wastes high end units, often cavalry or heavy infantry, on wild goose chases in futile attempts neutralize light infantry units while ignoring your army's main body. The worst results are when it sends its cavalry charging after your light infantry even if it means impaling itself on your spear units once said skirmisher have retreated through your front lines! Then there are the countless times when it separates heavy infantry units (i.e. pikemen!), from its main force and has them go after fleet footed skirmishers or cavalry on the flanks... while in phalanx formation! Simply idiotic!

ive seen it try to make me intercept "flanking" units, they just hold several units ready (cav) and try to make you attack the bait, quite clever actually...

I honestly don't think it's a question of baiting so much as a function of the AI's unwillingness to commit its cavalry until your unit's flanks have been exposed. Regardless of the real reason behind it sound tactics are sound tactics.

Either my memory is in error or perhaps I'm simply delusional but now that I think about it I could swear the tactical AI in the RTW demo was better, if not more decisive than the AI in the retail release. Once the fan made battle editors were released I recall setting up countless battles between my Romans and the Gauls and found the latter to be far more inclined to charge en masse at my front line as soon as they got within 'charging' range. I could swear there was less dawdling and marching about in front of my lines than there were Warcry inspired bone crushing charges straight into my lines! I recall it being far more effective than the current system where the impetuous Gauls seem to be lacking that fiery spirit they were so famous for. Can someone back me up on this?

**Zorn** · 01-03-2005, 23:54

I think it depends on wich faction you are facing.
Civs with very heavy units, such as gauls and rome tend to attack you straight in the centrer, while civs with lighter units, like numidia and egypt like to use flanking a lot.

**ibejeph** · 01-04-2005, 00:14

As an example of the tactical master that is RTW, last night I beat a huge army of Parthian eastern infantry. It was a magnificient sight. There was about 2000 of them, all in purple line stretching far and wide, marching slowly to meet my meager mixed line of militia hoplites, levy pikemen, skirmishes and light calvary. Surely the AI would use it's massive advantage in infantry to plow straight into my lines, overwhelm my pikemen and with their spears keep my light calvary at bay.

Then my calvary hit them with javelins from the flanks, my skirmishes hit their front and the whole big purple line went everywhere. Infantry men were running at my skirmishng calvary and infantry, turn their flanks to my hoplites. I just hit them in the middle with my hoplites, some fought, most ran and my calvary ended up with tons of kills on the routing troops. They had me beat with that mass of infantry, all they had to do was suffer some minor casualties from javelins until they reached my troops. When they split up to chase the skirimishes and calvary, their mass was difused and any advantage in numbers they had was diluted. I took the day but it felt like a hollow victory.

**Red Harvest** · 01-04-2005, 04:45

The Gauls are probably the best about forming a nice broad battle line and charging en masse. I'm not sure why, but they put up a better fight than the Romans and most others.

**Puzz3D** · 01-04-2005, 19:14

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

When the lines meet, the AI often turns many of its units trying to find the supposed best tactical match up at the last moment. This creates mass disorder in its ranks (and yours if you try to do 1 vs 1 match ups rather than a "march through" order.) It should be arranging its battle line ahead of this rather than waiting until the lines meet. "Intercept course" headings really cause chaos when this happens.

You'll see the AI do this even if all the units are of the same type. I don't know what kind of matchups it's looking for. I can march my line of Roman swords up close to a line of AI phalanx units, and when I get close the AI units go in all different directions with some even marching away from my line. I have no flanks exposed, and all the matchups are the same. I can't make any sense of what the AI is trying to do unless it perceives that a frontal fight is not to its advantage and is trying to use indirect attacks, but units that turn and expose their flank are ignoring the fact that an enemy unit is right in front of it and can charge into its flank. If it's trying to hit the flanks of my units, it can't because all my flanks are covered except for the two ends.

The AI in original STW v1.12 is more intelligent than the AI in RTW. If you get close to an AI unit in STW v1.12, it will turn into and charge you frontally even if it has the weaker unit. Initially, it will maneuver for an indirect flank attack until the enemy unit starts moving toward it. It does this frontal assault because it knows that it's the best choice given that the human saw the attempted flank move and came forward to confront frontally. If the AI unit doesn't turn to fight, it will get hit in the flank, and the AI knows that's worse than charging the stronger unit. Once that unit is engaged, it will attempt to flank the enemy unit with a second unit if it has one available within the activation distance. I've never seen the AI in STW v1.12 try to hit a flank that's covered by another enemy unit. In RTW, I see AI units exposing their flank to enemy units as they try to charge into unexposed enemy flanks.

Basically, the AI in RTW cannot defeat the human player with tactics. It beats you only if it has the stronger units.

**Red Harvest** · 01-04-2005, 20:56

Puzz3D,

That's exactly what I see as well, especially compared to STW/MTW. I suspect they have tried to add some features with intercepts and the like, but have not had time to tune the AI to do things at the right time. As a result is self destructs like this. It's like half the new approach has been coded, while the other half has not yet been coded/updated.