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Thread: Early Rome

  1. #1
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    I need lots of info on this guys as I am the ones who has to find everything our for the Rome MOD, Lord Krazy simply get info off me for what to do (i.e. I say change Templar ot Legionnaire etc).

    So, I need to know some sites that can help with things like working out the factions, the units and so on.

    ------------------
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    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
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    Ja Mata

  2. #2

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    i will be more than happy to help for a roman mod ( im a modder too ) and as an italian i know Roman's legions and their enemies pretty good ... but i want to know if this attempt of a mod is a serious thing or not

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Ithaskar FŽarindel's Avatar
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    Check it out in the mod's section Frantz, here's a link to the post:
    http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000529.html

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  4. #4

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    If interested contact me at
    icq 6091136 ( no serious mod is possible without icq !! )
    i was already gahering infos about it , we an make a chat session next week to plan it .

  5. #5
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    I posted some links in the MOD section post. If you need info I have tons but it might be easier if you came up with a list of questions so I can give you more specific info. Also, I can scan some pics for you so you can get an idea of what Roman soldiers and their adversaries looked like.

  6. #6

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    excuse me you are talking with an italian and you want to show me how Romans looks like ???

  7. #7
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    Just so you know, much of the info I have would be from the following books:

    Roman warfare
    the Times history of Europe
    Cannae 216 BC
    The Roman army from Caesar to Trajan
    Germanic warrior 236-568 AD

    To Frantz: I meant on a very detailed level, such as arms armour etc. stretching from the Republican to the Imperial period. Which contrary to what many people believe changed quite a bit.
    (and for the record... can barely... resist... making a comeback... about you... talking to a German...)

    [This message has been edited by AvramL (edited 09-08-2002).]

    [This message has been edited by AvramL (edited 09-08-2002).]

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member Red Peasant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Frantz:
    excuse me you are talking with an italian and you want to show me how Romans looks like ??? [/QUOTE]

    Bloody-Hell! Do Italians still walk around in togas!!

    And does the Eye-tie army still wear 'Lorica Segmentata'!

    ------------------
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    And Heaven in a wild flower,
    To hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
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    - William James

  9. #9
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    I'm very interested Frantz, my e-mail is in the post posted earlier I believe.

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    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  10. #10
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    I'm gathering a list of units I think should be included in the mod, I should have them posted here tomorrow, if I have time I'll post/email some pics from my books. If you want a book with a good overview of ancient Rome try "Roman Warfare" by Adrian Goldsworthy (Cassel military series)
    Again a good site is http://www.roman-empire.net/index.html

    Here's another one http://www.ghg.net/shetler/rome/
    [This message has been edited by AvramL (edited 09-10-2002).]

    [This message has been edited by AvramL (edited 09-10-2002).]

  11. #11
    Member Member Warmaker's Avatar
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    Oooh, a Roman mod? By all means gentlemen, push on. Time's ticking and I'm waiting to send the Legions abroad!
    Roma Invicta- Rome The Eternal

    There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

  12. #12
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    Here you go, a partial list of units for factions that I am familiar with that I think should be included in the mod. Note: all Roman infantry fights well in tight disciplined formations, but when broken up they are very vulnerable. Also I think that MTW's loyalty system could be used with great effect to simulate the constant warring between political rivals within the empire. One final note, the provinces of the Italian peninsula should be very economically strong to support Roman expansion while that of other factions, while more numerous, more primitive.

    Rome: Mid Republican period (Punic wars etc.)

    Legionary infantry: wearing chain mail lorica and montefortino helms (with strange feathers on the top according to illustrations) carrying an early scutum and two pilum javelins as well as a gladius. These legions are formed from a simple levy and as such are not as proffesional as their later counterparts, they are however well armed and armoured and are still relatively disciplined when in their combat formations. (composite of the Hastati, Princeps and Trairii)

    Velites: These units are formed out of the poorer classes and serve as skirmishers. Armed with light javelins and a gladius but carry only a small shield for protection, though they are fast and cheap to raise.

    Allied/auxillary infantry/cavalry: I'm not sure wether or not you want to include these units made up of men from states allied to Rome or not in the mod for this period.

    Legionary Cavalry (Equites): ill disciplined but otherwise decent medium cavalry, not that numerous though. Carry small shields and wear mail, armed with javelins/stabbing spears and spatha type gladius.

    Late Republican period

    Legionary Infantry: More proffesional than their forebearers, slightly better armoured and now with only one pilum (and no helm feathers), more disciplined bit more expensive.

    Archers: attached to the legions, not present in that large numbers and not very effective against well armoured units like legionary infantry etc.

    Alae: later medium cavalry type, more disciplined and all around better than the earlier equites, also a bit more numerous. Similarily armed and armoured.

    Early Imperial Period

    Legionary infantry: now with Lorica segmentata armour and gallic helms as well as later model scutum. Very proffesional etc.

    Auxillary infantry: drawn from around the empire from largely subject peoples. With chain mail coats, coolus helms (similar to gallic) and oval shields. Not quite as good as regular infantry but cheaper.

    Armenian heavy cavalry: out of MTW I guess and region specific.

    Various other region specific allied units.

    High Imperial Period

    Same as before but with possibly more allied units.

    Late Imperial

    Decline in quality, legions now lighter armed and armoured, less disciplined etc. but cheaper, heavier reliance on cavalry.

    Celts (Including gauls)

    Early/Late Celtic warriors: decently armed and armoured warriors with assorted equipment, brave but with little discipline, later warriors have better (often Roman) equipment.cheap compared to legions.

    Celtic Levy: essentially peasants armed with possibly spears but with little or no armour and with fickle morale, form the bulk of Celtic armies. Very cheap.

    Celtic cavalry: decent medium cavalry, ill disciplined but brave.

    Germanics

    Early/Late warriors: similar to the celtic equivalent but with a different style, very brave but impetuous etc. and without discipline, later warriors are better armed and armoured, though even the early ones are decent enough being elite.

    Levies: again similar to the Celtic ones but a bit better because of the even more warlike nature of the Germanic tribes.

    Germanic cavalry: only available in the eastern provinces (gothic lands etc.) and are similar to the Celtic equivalent though they look a bit different.

    Both the Germanics and Celts should have limited access to archers (region specific or something maybe). The Germanics especially are very fractered and should not be playable except in later periods when one can play as the Franks and conquer the rest of Germany as well as Gaul.

    Carthiginians

    Greek style heavy infantry/phalanx: holdover from the greek equivalents (carthage was originally a Phoenician colony).

    And many varied region specific units, Numidians, Iberians etc. Such as Numidian light cavalry and Hispanic infantry (heavy and light) as well as cavalry.

    Parthians: Not to knowledgeable about them but I do know they used nimble units, largely cavalry including horse archers but also cataphracts.

  13. #13
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    ------------------
    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  14. #14

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    Regarding the time period that must be covered i think that one can have 2 options
    or from Punic wars to 300 DC or from Caesar to 500 DC , i think the date of 500 DC would be interesting as a challenge ( can you expand and mantain a great roman empire repelling barbaric invasions ? ) while the first option will rappresent the challenge to create again the great ( or a greater ) roman empire .
    Some playable factions can be
    ROME
    CARTHAGO (only 1st option )
    PARTHIANS
    EGYPT
    GERMANS
    GREEKS
    PERSIANS ( only 2nd option better )
    GAULS
    CELTICS
    DACIANS
    GOTHS ( for 2nd option better )
    SARMATIANS

    not playables can be
    Phoenicians or greeks colonies
    Thracians
    Helvetians
    Belgians ( a big deal in CAesar times )
    Huns
    Visigoths
    Ostrogoths
    Ebraics
    Cilicians
    Mithridates fellows
    Iberians
    Arabs
    Armenians
    etc etc etc ...
    the big problem will be to recreate civil wars ... in Rome there were probably more civil wars ( or better fights for the succession ) than clashes with other populations !

  15. #15
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Well for the first MOD the factions have been confirmed.

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    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

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    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    BTW I don't know if you are aware of this or not but the goths were Germans or Germanics (as is usually said) also the Gauls were Celts (Gaul is a Roman name). Though it's hard to give each of those groups a united kingdom as historically they were just a collection of bickering tribes that fought each other more than the Romans.

  17. #17
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    Do you want scanned pics of some of those units so you can create the graphics?

  18. #18

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    The Gauls were ( in part ) Celts of origin but the were a totally different 'politic' antities ... the same is for the Goths , the goths of adrianopolis werent the same of Arminio at Teutoburg ( its 300 years of difference so different areas and different identities )
    before starting to work on anything a group must be formed , and almost 5/6 peoples who make draws must be found and the possibility of making the mod must be studied , it will be a waste to start making graphic and the discovering that the game wont work with different dates ... so things must be planned seriousely .

  19. #19
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    It's Lord Krazy's department is units Avram, he's on hols.

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    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  20. #20
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    I was referring to cultural groupings, political states amongst the "barbarian" peoples of northern Europe were almost none existent until the end of the Roman empire. So, therefor, I don't see how one can really make political boundaries for them, IMO it would be better to go along cultural lines and just make those factions very unsettled with contenders for the "throne" springing up all the time.

  21. #21
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Yes, I agree.

    I haven't done anything since about two days ago as I have no idea who would own what provinces and the search engines aren't coming up with anything.

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    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
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    Don't forget that Gallicia in modern-day Turkey was also a Gaullic province.
    All we are saying....is give peas a chance - Jolly Green Giant

  23. #23
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    So you need maps then?

  24. #24
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    Oh yes.

    ------------------
    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  25. #25
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    I have some more info too.
    Tacitus writes that the early Germans fought almost like skirmirshers and most were armed with light spears for stabbing/throwing and shields. Later (around the fall of the empire) the western Germans fought in a much more Romanesqeu manner with heavier infantry and denser formations, such as the famed defensive "shield wall". Proffessional warriors and such would of course have swords and mail shirts etc. but the most common weapon amongst Germanic (and Celtic) warriors during the Roman period was the spear. Elite infantry such as household warriors would also fight to the death if their leader was slain. I'll email some maps to you when I get a chance.

    an exert from Tacitus' work on the early Germans:
    'Only a very few use swords or lances. The spears that they carry - frameae is the native word - have short and narrow heads, but are so sharp and easy to handle, that the same weapon serves at need for close or distant fighting. The horseman asks no more than his shield and spear, but the infantry have also javelins to shower, several per man, and they can hurl them to a great distance; for they are either naked or only lightly clad in their cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious in their turn out. Only the shields are picked out with carefully selected colours. Few have body armour; only here and there will you see a helmet of metal or hide. Their horses are not distinguished either for beauty or for speed, nor are they trained in Roman fashion to execute various turns. They ride them straight ahead or with a single swing to the right, keeping the wheeling line so perfect that no one drops behind the rest. On general survey, their strength is seen to lie rather in their infantry, and that is why they combine the two arms in battle. The men who they select from the whole force and station in the van are fleet of foot and fit admirably into cavalry action. The number of these chosen men is exactly fixed. A hundred are drawn from each district, and 'the hundred' is the name they bear at home. '

    Here is an evaluation of that:
    From this description it would seem that the warriors were primarily infantry with a small amount of cavalry support. They would generally be armed only with spear(s) and shield, although a few of the greatest/most well off might possess a sword, helm or, rarely, body armour. Archaeology bears this out, and probably most of the swords, helms and mailshirts originated within the Roman Empire, reaching the Germans either by trade or as spoils of war. The relative commonness and scarcity of the various types of arms and armour is well borne out by finds from sacrificial bogs where votive offerings of the arms and armour of defeated enemies were often made. In these finds shields and spears (and surprisingly often bows and arrows) are by far the most common, with swords, helms and armour all being much rarer. Up until the fourth century most of these swords, helms and mailshirts are of Roman type, although from the fifth century onwards distinctly German type swords become more common.



    [This message has been edited by AvramL (edited 09-16-2002).]

  26. #26
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    Uuhhmmm.. NagatsukaShumi, I need your email address in order to give you the maps I have scanned.

  27. #27
    Member Member AvramL's Avatar
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    Here's a link to a links page, just scroll down a bit and take a look at the links provided (there is some good stuff on the Roman army). http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon...#romanaccounts

  28. #28
    Yorkist Senior Member NagatsukaShumi's Avatar
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    samandshirley@splaxton.fsnet.co.uk

    ------------------
    Power to the Sultan!
    -Clan Seljuk

    I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi
    RIP TosaInu
    Ja Mata

  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member Hakonarson's Avatar
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    See if yuo can find a copy of "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome" by Phil Barker on Bibliofind - it's quite old now, but still an authoritative work and one that has never been surpassed for brining everything to do with Imperial Roman military and opponents together in one place.

    For Earlier Rome look for "Armies of eth Macedonian and Punic Wars" - published by WRG but I forget who the author is.

  30. #30

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    It will be great to put Gladiator soundtrack for the music in a Roman Mod!!!
    "I am the Flail of God. If you have not committed such sins would God have sent me to punish you?" -Genghis Khan

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