legendary cavalry commanders

**nokhor** · 07-25-2002, 07:22

ever notice that the great leaders of the cavalry charge seem to have the same personality?

vain, personally fearless, not too bright, relentless in pursuit, single-minded almost to the point of obstinacy, very ambitious.

romance of the 3 kingdoms
lu bu

alexandrian era
philotas

napoleonic era
blucher
murat

american civil war
hood
sheridan

wwii
patton

reading biographical info on these guys is like seeing the same persona over and over again. 'i will charge, and if i win i will charge again, and if i am defeated i will charge again, and if my troops have no strenght left, then i will charge...'

this of course doesn't include cav archer commanders who used different tactics and i guess needed a different type of personality to be successful.

on a minor note, i also think ney was mis-promoted when nappy made him a divisonal commader. the corsican should have kept him like bessieres or murat in his cav reserve or guard. cuz ney kept on trying to make his infantry fight like cavalry which led i.m.o. to many useless deaths.

------------------
indeed

**chilliwilli** · 07-25-2002, 22:07

Yep, even The Mongols had a few of those.
Only exception is they were bright(especially Tamerlane.) and not to vain, but the other traits certainly apply to them.

**Del** · 07-26-2002, 11:07

Actually, Patton was one smart cookie. So was Murat. I can't speak as to the others, as I know very little of them.

I also don't see why you feel the need to slight Ney.

Perhaps you should do some more research, my friend. I have very similar interests to yours, have probably read some of the same sources as you.. and I don't see any basis for your statements.

Just my humble opinion,

Del

P.S.: Not to say that I can disagree with you on a few of the points, perhaps about vanity and ambition. Clausewitz makes a very good analysis of the personality types befitting various sorts of commanders. I highly recommend his book.

[This message has been edited by Del (edited 07-26-2002).]

**nokhor** · 07-29-2002, 04:20

wasn't trying to slight ney, sorry if that was the way it came across, i was just arguing that he would have been better utilized as an all cavalry force commader.

------------------
indeed

**Nelson** · 07-30-2002, 08:42

Ah, ACW without J.E.B. Stewart? And Forrest? And Mosby? Yikes!

Can't forget Custer too.

John Bell Hood was fine until he was asked to run a whole army. Then he was a disaster. Look what happened at Franklin.

RageMonsta · 07-31-2002, 06:55

Magyar Khan does ok aswell!

**Stephen Hummell** · 07-31-2002, 08:36

Good ol' JEB Stuart. Best cav. commander of the ACW.

**Nelson** · 08-01-2002, 10:54

I think Nate Forrest was the best. He was smarter than Stuart. JEB did blow it on the way to Gettysburg.

------------------
CONITOERGOVINCO

Toda Nebuchadnezzar · 08-01-2002, 20:18

I always thought Amp was a cav commander?

Oh well other good cavalry commanders?? Can't think of any actually, Perhaps Atilla the Hun???

------------------
Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!

No Fear Legend.

**Stephen Hummell** · 08-02-2002, 00:25

JEBs men were the best cavalrymen of the ACW. JEB was the best in the early years of the ACW. Attila was a great cav. commander.

Best general of modern warfare, I mean within the last 100 years.

MacArthur, Eisenhower, Rommel.....

**chilliwilli** · 08-02-2002, 22:16

Attila wasn't an outstanding commander. He had excellent horseman at his disposle and really just told them where to strike. Even when he led a force into battle(Catalaunian Fields) he didn't show any amazing generalship in my opinion. Some other good calvary commanders are Subedei and Belisarius.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-02-2002).]

**eastern storm** · 08-05-2002, 03:05

kit buqa he was hulegu best general mongol of course but a nestorian christian as was his wife?

[This message has been edited by eastern storm (edited 08-05-2002).]

**chilliwilli** · 08-06-2002, 02:46

Hulegu was not the best Mongol general his success wasn't that great(he faced opponents who were already beaten and just had to rampage through The Middle East with little effort.) and he didn't see battle as much as other Mongols. Best Mongol general is either Subedei or Jochi. Jebe is a close 3rd.

**eastern storm** · 08-06-2002, 04:27

Do you mean jebe[nickname the the arrow who nearly killed genghis?].
I did not mean hulegu was a good general .
I meant kit buka was who i think was killed fighting the mamluks.
What people dont seem to understand that the carnage wrought by the mongols nearly destroyed islam and brought europe to the forefront as in invention industrialistion/etc. As the former muslim states never recovered in fact to this day some places have never recovered that were in the mongol path.
As the europeans were kind of seen as backward then.
thus thanks to the mongols this enabled the europeans to come to the forefront and not be over taken.

**Wavesword** · 08-06-2002, 05:06

A Moslem general called Caleb(?) was an important factor in the success of Arab expansion. In a number of battles his forces arrive 'in the nick of' time. He also had a somewhat legalistic understanding of treaties which led to such acts as his releasing the defenders of a place from molestation for 3 days if they would surrender it. Naturally therefore he tracks them all into enemy territory and strikes at 3 days plus a little bit.

**chilliwilli** · 08-06-2002, 06:57

Oh sorry didn't relize you meant kit buka well he wasn't really outstanding. I know he can't be blamed for the loss to The Mameluks, but you have to ask yourself can he be compared to the likes of Jochi, Jebe, and Subedei? I think not.

**eastern storm** · 08-06-2002, 15:44

I agree with that? But the historical impact the mongols especially genghis and hulegu had on the muslims i think changed the course of history. Especially if you were muslim as they were more at an advanced stage of development than europe.
So probally by accident the mongols changed the course of history as we know today.
Do you mean jebe the arrow who nearly killed genghis and then served as one of his best generals?.
Thats a good book if you can get acopy reprint the secret life of the mongols .
written by the mongols about themselves.
probally the only book to do so.

**the Count of Flanders** · 08-06-2002, 18:03

The Norman Bohemund in the first crusade was pretty good, and Baldwin I of Jerusalem/Boulogne of course.
Commanding Frankish knights can be very challenging!

**chilliwilli** · 08-07-2002, 02:24

Yes, everyone knows that they changed The Muslim world. Just look at Afghanistan for example, do you know that the reason their country is in such bad shape is because Genghis Khan had their entire irrigation system destroyed?

Yes, I am talking about Jebe the youth who killed Genghis Khan's horse(Jebe didn't shoot the arrow into Genghis' jugular vein that almost killed him that was a just some archer from the enemy army.) he was a prodigy who showed exceptional generalship(wich some never learn) and military skills at a young age.

Also the information from The Secret History of The Mongols has been put in every Mongol book out there, so most people have read it and not even known it.

Count, I agree commanding Frankish Knights can be a daunting task!

**nokhor** · 08-07-2002, 02:55

hey Count,

was baldwin I, the crusader ruler who used to impress muslim emmisarries by beheading a camel with a single sword blow? or am i thinking of someone else?

------------------
indeed

**the Count of Flanders** · 08-07-2002, 03:32

Quote Originally posted by nokhor:
hey Count,

was baldwin I, the crusader ruler who used to impress muslim emmisarries by beheading a camel with a single sword blow? or am i thinking of someone else?

[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, could very well be. I think it was his brother Godfrey of Bouillon though, but Baldwin also had a very impressive physique, but he impressed the muslems most with his daring (some would say suicidal) cavalry raids against muslem targets. The battles of Ramleh come to mind.
In the first battle he was facing an Egyptian army that outnumbered him at least 15-1. His tactic was unexpected and bold: head on cavalry charge. However the first wave was beaten back, as was the second wave. He set up a feigned flight and the Egyptians smelling a glorious victory recklessly pursued. Then Baldwin and his personal guard (probably no more than 100 knights) turned round, (the rest of the christian army was probably really running away) charged head on and completely routed the entire baffled egyptian army.
One year later he again encountered an Egyptian army some 20000 strong and decided once again on a head-on attack with his 300 knight strong scouting force. This time the Egyptians didn't break though and he was lucky to get out alive. Still he was probably the greatest crusader commander ever (I place him over Saladin).

**Kamui_Imagawa** · 08-07-2002, 03:36

Personally, my favourite cavalry commander of all time just has to be oliver cromwell...He was a smart one and a great leader for his troops, gotta respect him!!!

------------------
The assasin of night is a dangerous foe, the assasin of day is extremely dangerous

**Wavesword** · 08-07-2002, 04:07

Favourite Oliver Cromwell quote that could often be used here: "I beseech you, by the bowels of Christ, at least think it possible that you might be wrong."

------------------
Lay your sleeping head, my love,
Human on my faithless arm;
Time and fevers burn away
Individual beauty from
Thoughtful children, and the grave
Proves the child ephemeral:
But in my arms till break of day
Let the living creature lie,
Mortal, guilty, but to me
The entirely beautiful.

**AvramL** · 08-07-2002, 12:44

See, Bluecher was actually quite intelligent (despite believing he was pregnant with an elephant fathered by a French soldier) because he assigned the truly intelligent Gneisenau as chief of staff, thus negating his own lack of mental prowess.
BTW I believe Richard ceour de lion belongs in that list of cavalry commanders. All he really had going for him oustide of the attributes listed was an ability to time charges to perfection.

**nokhor** · 08-07-2002, 18:26

in all honesty, it was finding out about the bluecher/elephant thing, that prompted me to start this thread. i just got to thinking about these guys with their great martial prowess that had all these idiosyncracies.

------------------
indeed

**Orda Khan** · 08-07-2002, 19:46

Jochi played a significant part in the defeat of Khwarazm but the mastermind behind the campaign was Subedei. Too many people overlook Jebei, for much of what was achieved was a joint effort, between Subedei and Jebei. You can bet that Jochi had been well trained by them. Jebei was a tremendous general who would have achieved much more had he not died when he did. Can you imagine the fate of Europe if these two had come back to carry out their plan?

------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

**Nelson** · 08-08-2002, 18:10

I say Wavesword, by the bowels of Christ, that is a great quote.

------------------
CONITOERGOVINCO

**eastern storm** · 08-11-2002, 01:52

After long consideration it has to be genghis.
1/Uniting all the mongol tribes was no mean feat especially as he was captured and down to a handfull of followers at various points in this campaign.
With out this deed alone the mongols would not have come to be the fearsome force they were. As truces friendships were easily broken. Plus to blend this into one cohsive unit and to keep it all together was a feat in its self and make the mongols one unifying force. Then his conqests in china/europe/middle east speak for themselves. Not only was he a great leader and commander but after his death his legacy lived on in is sons and grandsons who went on to fullfill his ambitions and a dynsty that did not break up on his death.

**chilliwilli** · 08-11-2002, 02:00

We are talking about great cavalry commanders, not life time achievements. We know what he did already and he had a strong will yes, but he only took command of armies while uniting Mongolia and once or twice in the middle east. Jochi and Subedei were the masterminds behind the numerous Mongol campaigns and took command of most of the armies themselves. Genghis Khan did come up with the many tactics of deceit that The Mongols used, but whether he was better at commanding cavalry than Jochi, Subedei, and Jebe is questionable.

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-10-2002).]

**Orda Khan** · 08-11-2002, 20:47

What campaigns did Jochi mastermind?
Chingis Khan had achieved a lot before Subedei joined his following Muqhali was also a great general.
Jochi gave a good account of himself in different campaigns. Jebei and Subedei were the greatest cavalry generals
...Orda

------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

Thread: legendary cavalry commanders

Thread Tools

Display

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions