General

[hoggy]

Post here for general questions, ideas etc

[shifty157]

Just wandering. Now that you have the larger hanya is it possible to have them hit 2 or even 3 men with one swing? Perhaps coding it as an area effect? Just speculation.

[hoggy]

Hopefully yes, not looked into it yet but I think units have an area effect? Otherwise they have a charge bonus which throws men upo into the ir like cavalry so I'll be adding that.

[Raziaar]

Can't you mod into the unit some qualities that an elephant has? Even after the charge is over with an elephant, their normal attacks can launch multiple units into the air I think? Or is it just one?

[shifty157]

I just had an interesting idea hoggy. Have the 'peasant' unit for each faction take 0 turns to build. That way you can train as many peasants as you want in just 1 turn. This would make for interesting tacticle desicion. Whats more people might actually consider training them. Just for the simple fact that you could essentially mobilize the entire population of a city in 1 turn. Also when you think how much training does a unit of peasants actually need? They dont need any. Basically youre just handing them a cheap spear and sending them off to die. Using this thought it might take a day to outfit a unit of peasants. Considering how each turn is 6 months you can outfit a lot of peasants. This wouldnt upset any gameplay as peasants are still peasants and any semitrained unit can still cut through them. In the early game youll be severely limited by the population of the city so you probably wont be able to or wont want to mobilize more than 2 or 3 units of peasants. This would effectively not allow any rushing. From what i can think up this sounds like a really good idea to me. Taking the idea further you could then train town militia in 1/2 turn or 2 units per turn. The ultra elite untis could take up to 4 turns to train. The more i think about having peasants take 0 turns to train the more i like the idea.

[RedSilver]

Ekk!

Mass meat bags, god know's I wouldn't want to clean up after that battle.

@ hoggy what tools do You use to model and skin and such?

Many Thanks.

[DragoonXXIV]

Actually shifty, i'm not positive but i think that you can't train units in under a turn, plus if you could mobilize your entire population you can essentially strip a city of it's inhabitants and make it useless to capture. And while peasents don't need very much training (maybe a week to show 'em which is the pointy end) you still have to make the spears and get a officer to lead 'em and feed them and all the other logistical problems assosicatied with large armies. In truth i like the idea of quickly training them but i think it's unfeasible.

[TigerVX]

Actually, you can make them train in 0 turns. You still have to end the turn for them to produce, but you can make all 9 in one turn. Again, you can't train your entire populus since there is a limit of 9 training slots for you to use, so the max of men you could train is 9 peasents each turn.

[DragoonXXIV]

Ah, sorry, forgot about the 9 cap on training, still you can use it to migrate a chunk of the population.

[RedSilver]

Just wondering how you Family Tree will work, are you going for Vanilla's style (your ruling family's er..well..family.) or maybe something new?

[Lief]

I like the peasant idea. That way you could quickly draft a large, albeit weak and low morale army to fight way. Or, you can use it to abandon a city and migrate to one of your other cities.

[hoggy]

Peasant idea sounds good, we could give it a go and playtest it. Not sure about plans for the family yet I've not really thought about it, i guess it depends what would work best for all the factions.

[wlesmana]

I like the ability to mobilize your peasants for defense.
To limit their use and the zerging tactic, what if their salary is really, really large making it unfeasible to train 9 of them and keep them for the next turn? So they'd get trained up in an emergency, then before the turn is up, they'd have to be disbanded.

[blindfaithnogod]

i think if you made thier upkeep high, this would encourage you to only use them for an emergency, rather than initial cost.

[blindfaithnogod]

oh wait thats what you said. hahah

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I know it's fairly hardcoded, but did you ever think of how demons have familes, hoggy? Will it just be assumed that they are led by patriarchal head-demons, or human sorcerers who have families that lead (I guess through conjuring) hordes of demons???

Sorry if this has been discussed before. Keep up the good work - and don't rush it (like Rome: Total War grumble grumble...).

[Kageka]

I also have a few questions/thoughts about the demons.

The fantasy Asia strategy/war board game me and my friends made (I mentioned it a few posts ago) had several demon factions. We mostly devided the demons into smaller factions due the way the looked and what kind of "realm" we thought they fitted into. Not only that, we also found out that except that it looked better it also gave every demon faction a more unique look and strategical profile. As I mentioned we had THE RESTLESS wich consisted of demons, spirits, beings and beasts that we found to be creepy, haunting, ghoulish or/and ghostlike. It was ruled by an evil ancient sorcerer/mystic and his disciples. THE LEGION consisted of demons, spirits, beasts and beings that that we thought to be more devilish/hellish, beastlike, cacophonic or/and brutal (such as Four armed Demons, Oni etc.). We also had a Cult-like faction of cultists, fanatics and outlaws. The cultists obeyed a godess much like Kali (we called the faction "the Bandit swarm" or "the Gathering" as mentioned before).

I don't know if you like the idea of making two sub-factions of the demon faction. But as it looks now you already have (nearly) enough troops to make two quite different-looking factions... at least I think so.

Suggestions on the troops already made...

Demon faction 1: The Ghost realm
Zombie Ashigaru
Undead Samurai
Ghost Geishas
Noh Demons
Floating Hags
Beast Riders
Demon Samurai (or maybe Kagemusha/Ghost general?)

Demon faction 2: The Demon realm
Bakemono
Hanaya
Snow monkeys
Wang Liangs
Shishi Riders
Copperdragon

The Rokurokubi would fit in both of the factions. Maybe only wearing different colored robes to sort them out (red and black robes for the demons and ghost-white and black robes for the ghosts).

I personally think that the Kappa-troops, Tengu Camelrider and the Basket Ronin would fit better as mercenary troops.. I can't really motivate it thou.


Well thats just what I think.


Any way, as I (and many before me have) said before: this mod will be the coolest mod/totalwar-game ever. It's about time that somebody make a descent strategic wargame that take place in Asia (well at least a mythologic/fantasy Asia).

Hoggy is the man

[DragoonXXIV]

I think splitting the demons is a question of how large they start. If they start with as much force as others, meaning they can really only expand one way, they it's best for them to be a single faction. However if they have more initial troops than any other faction and can immediately expand in several directions than it's better for them to be 2 different factions, that way they can trip each other up i.e. one head not knowing what the other is doing.

On the matter of demon family tree, maybe it's less a family and more one head demon, his disciples/favoraites in training (babies), then when they mature/complete thier training they assume positions of power and serve as hiers if something 'unfortunate' should happen to their boss and they have to step in and take coomand.

Also although R:TW wasn't as great as it could have been, i still think CA did an excellent job and people are bad mouthing it too much. Remember CA still made the engine and this style of game was thier creation in the first place.

[DragoonXXIV]

Also could someone please tell me if there are any differences in units between Japan 1 & 2 and/or China 1 & 2

[shifty157]

The demon faction should not be split. I debated a few weeks ago and i came to the conclusion that the demons must be a continual wave that sweeps over everything in its path. Seperate demon factions would only hinder this and make them easier to defeat. The demons must be united. Anything else would be going against the flavor of the game.

[hoggy]

Alexander - not really sure yet. I think it would definitely make more sense if the Demons come to power by simply bumping off their predecessor. A survival of the most demonic. It'll essentially be down to the limitations of modding RTW in the end.

Kageka - I have to agree with shifty here, one big steamrolling Demon army is the way to go for now. If it proves unplayable we can always split them later.

Dragoon - The two factions will essentially be the same, at a later date i might add some specific units but the main difference will be their starting positions ie one will be relatively easy, one very hard.
I agree with you about RTW too. I am going to be doing some tweaking of gameplay seen in other mods but the main focus of the mod is to change the content not the game. If people don't like RTW it is unlikely they will like this mod as I won't be rewriting the game

[Kageka]

Ok. Well I see the point. One almighty demon army is more frightening than a myriad of smaller ones. I guess the cacaphonic and chaotic feeling of the Demon faction is more solid if the demons differ from each other very much (both in apperance and behavior).

But still, there seem to be only one evil faction in the game (I don´t know what you have in mind for all of those human factions though). Will there be some "evil" cult-faction? Some cult that indirectly act/work as agents for the Demon army or to some renegade demon/dark god/dark godess/spirit?

[shifty157]

You could perhaps try doing this as rebel demon armies that just appear in random places at random times. RTW already does this. The armies wouldnt pose any major threat. Just an annoyance. I guess the armies would mostly be composed of the undead (zombie ahigaru/samuri, hags, etc). I guess that would work. Not quite an entirely new faction but perhaps a bit more flavor for the game.


Also is there a way to allow no diplomatic relations with the demons. Or at least no bribing. I guess you could have other diplomatic ties though because oni and such are intelligent. There would have to be major consequences though for diplomaitc ties with the demons. Like if you allied with them then every other human faction would declare war on you. Stuff like that. But bribing demon armies is right out.

[Al Khalifah]

At least in R:TW unlike M:TW, if a human faction bribed a demon faction then the units would just disband rather than join the humans. Even still though, what would demons do with money? So if possible diplomatic relations with demons should not be possible.

Now here's an idea. Could the human factions be able to acquire 'turned-demons.' I mean, its not like all the demons have to be evil - some demons might be capable of some degree of self control. They could be like elephants in terms of AI, in that, they will fight for the human faction because they want to, but if it all gets too much they just go on a general rampage - because deep down inside they are still demons.

[DragoonXXIV]

Al Khalifah: maybe it's less 'turned' demons and more demon mercanaries at the borderlands, looking to cause some mischief... any mischief.

That aside, i think random armies of undead appearing would be pretty cool and it would fit into the idea of the mod.

[blindfaithnogod]

i think i agree with the rebel armies being demon. with one little change, make it happen only in the provinces that surround the original demon lands. i think, though, that this would have to make the rebel provinces around that area demon rebels no matter what. so maybe not such a good idea.

but i do like the mecenary idea as well

[Kageka]

I have two questions here:


1. Gunpowder
Will there be some sort of gunpowder weapons? If not mortars, big cannonsand arqebus, will there at least be blackpowder filled claybowls/ironflasks? Bamboo stick rifles? Rockets? Smaller types of cannons?


2. Non-human factions
Is there any plan to include some faction consisting of non-human beings/creatures (excluding the demon faction)?

I got one idea here and it may sound cheezy at start... Why not have an army of southern asian animal spirits, animal semi-demons and actual animals?
The faction could be led by a race of ape men and thus be called HANUMAN after the ape/monkey god in hindu mythology (or SUN WUKONG from chinese mythology).
http://www.sjc-serbia.com/download/hanuman.jpg
http://deepak.portland.co.uk/images/hanuman.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/posmandir/hanuman.jpg
http://www.indianink.net/cards/hanuman.gif
http://www.swamishyam.org/hanuman-deco.jpg
http://www.warriorprincess.com/seaso...ay/hanuman.jpg
http://www.pilgrimage-india.com/gifs/lord-hanuman.jpg
http://www.holymtn.com/gods/HAN-3med.jpg
http://www.ape-o-naut.org/famous/fam...es/hanuman.jpg



HANUMAN KINGDOM ARMY LIST
- Warrior hanuman (nearly naked, bronze/gold bracers/neckles, open bronze helmets, short spears)

- Hanuman bowmen (like above but armed with white shortbows and no helmets)

- Késari warriors (bigger, more buff, armed with two-handed bronze mace or club)

- Anjana guard (more armour, wear mask helmets http://www.thaimyway.com/article/Hanuman/Hanuman4t.jpg, )

- Old monkey wanderers (cloth and long braided white hair and fur, armed with the indian martial whip-like sword *forgot the name*)

- Hanuman templar guardians (ornamated and more armor than the hanuman warriors, also armed with bronze mace or club)

- Serpent spirits (looks like regular great python but alot bigger, demonic and fights for the hanuman kingdom)

- Tiger spirits (looks like regular tigers but alot bigger,demonic and fights for the hanuman kingdom)

- Hanuman Tiger riders (hanuman warriors armed with schimitar and small shield, ridning on bengali tigers)

- Royal Tiger cavalry (hanuman templar guarde riding on great white tigers)

- Jungle Beasts (hanuman bowmen riding on jungle elephants)


Maybe add some human southern/jungle tribes whom have chosen to fight for the Hanuman due border/territorial feuds with the Krishnapur.

I don't know if this would fit into the Blue Lotus world, but I think it would add some extra spice if there was a neutral/good faction mainly based of non-humans in the game. They could be a non-playable that just inhabit some regions, making them more less powerfull as an army but more mystical and enigmatic.

Just an idea.

[shifty157]

So what youre saying is to take the snow monkeys out of the demon army and make them their own faction? Its an interesting idea. One worth consideration i guess. Maybe put them in the lower left coner of the map. South of the Demons and across the 'river' from the indians. That area seems a bit bare. Make the entire region very mountainous and covered in snow year-round. Give them a huge advantage while fighting in snow. etc etc.


On gunpowder i think there was a semi discussion considering large ornate cannons for the chinese. It kinda died off though. I think they could be included on the conditions that a) they are very inaccurate (much like the flaming onager missiles in normal rtw) and b) there is a small chance that they can backfire and explode destroying the cannon and everyone around it (i think this would be possible). I think that would add to the flavor rather than detract from it. It would require alot of work though because there would be so many new animations to create.

As for other gunpowder weapons. I dont think any others should be included. At least not without careful consideration.

[shifty157]

Sorry about the double post.


I was looking through the old screenshots again when i noticed the Kappa elephant riders. Seeing as how these are demon armies shouldnt the elephants be twisted and demonic as well? Darker hide maybe even black. Another set of tusks. Evil symbols painted onto them. I dunno. Just an idea if you find some extra time.

[Sheep]

I know it's fairly hardcoded, but did you ever think of how demons have familes, hoggy? Will it just be assumed that they are led by patriarchal head-demons, or human sorcerers who have families that lead (I guess through conjuring) hordes of demons???

I think the ruling family should be demons, and leadership changes could be explained as a powerful demon (the faction 'heir') killing off the current ruler and usurping his power.

So instead of the dialog box popping up to tell you your faction leader had died, it would say that a new leader had seized power. Is there a way to make this message different for the demon faction than the human factions which I assume would have normal ruling families?