Spartan Hoplites; phalanx?

[Byzantine Prince]

Did the Spartan really become phallanx? I always thought they were too traditionalist to conform to that new trend. I know how to change it so they can be normal but i was just wondering about the historical accuracy of this.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

As far as my limited knowledge goes, the phalanx wasn't a new idea at the time period of the game - it'd been around for a few hundred years.

The Spartans used Hoplites, so i'm guessing these were used in Phalanx formation - which i'm pretty sure is why they were so effective at Thermopolii (spelling, sorry). Well, that and being well 'ard.

[Byzantine Prince]

The Phalanx was invented in Beotea by the thebans. It's only about as old as Alexander's father, Phillip. So not quite hundreds of years.

Hoplite just means weapon bearer(I should know, I speak greek). Phalanx was definetly not used at Thermopylai. Spartans used the old style with short spears. Since they were traditionalists though i'm not so sure the game is right in making them in a phalanx formation.

[Kraxis]

Ok, we have to set up the definitions.

There are two versions of the phalanx. The old hoplite phalanx and the newer Macedonian phalanx. The only thing they have in common is the name and their relative unflexibility. And neither was invented by the Thebans, they still used the old hoplite phalanx when they faced off with Phillip and later with Alexander. The inventors have been said to be Pheidon of Argos (hoplite phalanx) and Iphicrates and/or Phillip of Macedon (Macedonain Phalanx).

The hoplite phalanx was a defensive construction where each man got protection from his buddies to the right and left. Especially to the right as his own shield was centered on his left elbow, making a bit of his right side open to attack, but at the same time the shield would also stretch out to the left and protect the next guy's right side. The weapons carried was the spear and sword. The spear was 'short' about 2.5 meters and carried overhand (some, it seems, did carry it underhand).
The Macedonain phalanx is the most like the one we see in the game, but it was based on an offensive outline where the men were protected by pikepoints rather than by shields. This demanded longer spears (pikes) and smaller shields strapped to the forearm. The pike was wielded twohanded and low.

The reason the hoplites use a onehanded underhand grip is because CA came to the conclusion that the overhand style was problematic (if you watch TC Adrianople you will see the Auxiliaries use the overhand style), the same is true for the twohanded grip of the Macedonian phalanx.

But to answer the original question. Yes the Spartans adopted the Macedonian phalanx, but much later than most others. It was around 220 BC.

[Meneldil]

I'm pretty sure (like 90%) that the macedonian phalanx formation was first used by the Thebans (maybe by the Sacred Band, I'm not quite sure about that).
My sources are, amongst others, "The Ancient Greeks" (Osprey), "The Lion of Macedon" (fantasy book, but with correct historical background), and "Alexandre et la Macédoine".

Anyway, the game's way to depict both Phalanx and Hoplites is kinda screwed up, so you'd better not make your mind with it.

[kendonosensei]

Meneldil is right. Don't get your knickers in a twist about this. The whole game is built around artistic licence and convenience.

Though it would have been interesting to see the Spartans as a non-phalanx, elite infantry unit, I like them the way they are. Well, I like them with the "Decisive Battles" mod. No more nightmares of Obi-Wan Kenobis fighting off Roman legions!

[Flippy]

Hoplite just means weapon bearer(I should know, I speak greek).

Uhm, so I take it that a hoplon is a weapon then?
Well, one could try and wack someone with it I suppose...

Could it be that a hoplon is in fact a giant frisbee, not a weapon? I don't know. I don't speak Greek....

[Red Harvest]

Hoplite just means weapon bearer(I should know, I speak greek). Phalanx was definetly not used at Thermopylai. Spartans used the old style with short spears. Since they were traditionalists though i'm not so sure the game is right in making them in a phalanx formation.

The hoplite phalanx had been around in Corinth, Sparta, and Argos since around 700 BC. So you must be referring to the Macedonian phalanx. Since Thermopylae was well over 100 years before the appearance of the Macedonian phalanx, it is indeed safe to say the Spartans did not use a Macedonian style phalanx there. Either that or perhaps you are suggesting they had really, really short spears less than 6 feet long (darts, anyone?)

[Byzantine Prince]

Phallanx is not just long spears. They have to be all positioned forward forming a sort of wall of spears. The macedonian phalanx is just longer then the normal one.

People back then were much shorter then today so a 6 foot long spear would not be a dart. IT woudl in fact be a spear. If you look at any ancient greek aggio you'll see that the spears they used were long at all. Not anywhere near to form a desent wall anyway. they were kind of like the Triarii in the game.

[Red Harvest]

Phallanx is not just long spears. They have to be all positioned forward forming a sort of wall of spears. The macedonian phalanx is just longer then the normal one.

People back then were much shorter then today so a 6 foot long spear would not be a dart. IT woudl in fact be a spear. If you look at any ancient greek aggio you'll see that the spears they used were long at all. Not anywhere near to form a desent wall anyway. they were kind of like the Triarii in the game.

Hoplite formations *were* phalanx formations, but not pike phalanx formations. 6 foot spears were normal for hoplites. Earlier you were implying that they were shorter than that, which would indeed be quite short for a spear, hence my reference to it as a dart.

Your original topic implies that the Spartans did not even fight in hoplite phalanx order. That is certainly untrue. Hoplites did not have the same spearwall as the Macedonian phalanx. Hoplites had the combination spear/shield wall with shields of about twice the area, but about half the density of spear points at the front of the formation (or less) and of course, much less reach.

Hoplite spears were single handed weapons. The Macedonian phalanx weapons were two handed. I'm not sure that there is agreement on whether Iphicrates' hoplites used their longer spears as single handed or as two handed weapons. There is even some debate as to whether hoplites relied solely on upperhand thrusts, or underhand thrusts. There are some depictions of them charging/marching to contact underhand, and fighting overhand.

While RTW depicts the hoplite phalangites unrealistically with spears too far forward (hence at least one extra spear point at the front of the formation) it does show some relative length differences. It also does not show any overhand thrusts for the hoplites once melee begins, but that is another matter.

[magicalsteve]

I agree that the Spartans used the Wall of Shields phalanx, and I hear that the Macedonians invented the Wall of Spears phalanx to keep the Spartans at bay. :)

Combat set in the days of the old phalanx would be fascinating, I long to see hoplites charge one another!

[Watchman]

Hoplite battles were actually kind of boring. You had two groups lined up slowly advancing towards each other, constantly stopping to redress the lines, and quite often at least parts of the lines would flee before the enemy even got into close combat. The Spartans could often chase off an army by their fierce reputation and professional maneuvering alone.

When the hoplites finally got around to charging, there'd be vast clouds of dust, a huge crash when the lines met, and usually one side broke and ran after rather brief hand-to-hand combat. Serious "fight to the death" situations only happened rarely, usually when a wing of an army got isolated by the rest of the troops routing and was surrounded.

Remember, these were quite literally "sunday soldiers".

The Macedonian phalangites, incidentally, had small shields hung from their necks to offer a measure of protection; they needed both hands to handle the sarissa (the RTW pikemen waving theirs around one-handed, with a big mighty shield strapped to the other arm, look somewhat amusing).

[Kraxis]

The Macedonian phalangites, incidentally, had small shields hung from their necks to offer a measure of protection; they needed both hands to handle the sarissa (the RTW pikemen waving theirs around one-handed, with a big mighty shield strapped to the other arm, look somewhat amusing).

Now don't get it too deep in here.
Indeed the phalangites had the shield strapped around the neck and shoulder (like a shoulderbag would be), but it was also strapped to the left forearm, the arm gripping the pike furthest forward. That means that the shield was somewhat maneauverable, most certainly in melee. But it also helped in a more physical way, it helped the phalangite keep the pike up by sending the weight up to his neck and shoulder. That way he could fight a much longer time and with better control.
The way you said it, it sounded like the shield just dangled down from the neck like a loose bellybag.

[Watchman]

Now don't get it too deep in here.
Indeed the phalangites had the shield strapped around the neck and shoulder (like a shoulderbag would be), but it was also strapped to the left forearm, the arm gripping the pike furthest forward. That means that the shield was somewhat maneauverable, most certainly in melee. But it also helped in a more physical way, it helped the phalangite keep the pike up by sending the weight up to his neck and shoulder. That way he could fight a much longer time and with better control.
The way you said it, it sounded like the shield just dangled down from the neck like a loose bellybag.

*shrug* the description I read on the subject certainly made it sound like it. Be that as it may, the shield was there and provided and extra layer of wood for any incoming things to go through, which is of course the main thing.

Uh... Meneldil ? By what you describe, it sounds a whole lot like the Thebans would've had an advantage in a "push of pikes" with the Macedonians - longer pikes, and more spare ranks. Yet all the (few) descriptions of Philip's career I've come across suggest the Macedonians chewed the Thebans up without particularly more trouble than they had against other Greeks...

Mind you, I'm perfectly willing to believe the Macedonians picked up the phalanx from somewhere and refined it; that's how many a succesful conqueror has gotten that special edge they needed to get started. I'm also half convinced the Macedonians picked the idea of heavy shock cavalry from the nearby steppe peoples, though the proto-feudal system they developed for raising the Companions was probably an original idea.