Nazi straight-arm salute

[Shadow]

Do you guys know what does the Nazi straight-arm salute means and its origins ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I'm not certain but isn't it good old "ave"?
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[Byzantine Prince]

Well I can give you some limited insight into the topic.

You see Hitler was a big fan of Benito Musolini. So he copied a lot of Italy's custom's. The Nazi salute was used in Italy first. So was the duck walk of Germany's military. During the Fascist years of Italy the governemnt wanted to imitate Roman imperialist styles. The origin of the salute is Roman. You might have even seen in some movies about Rome.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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...So was the duck walk of Germany's military....

Nah, it's Prussian.
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[Axeknight]

Romans would hit their left chest with their right hand then extend it and say "Hail Caesar!". Or at least they do in Spartacus

[Watchman]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off. The Nazis made a lot of vague references to Rome in general - I've been told the concept of "Third Reich" placed Berlin as the "third Rome", the first two having been Rome (duh) and Byzantium. They obviously ignored the far older Russian claim of Moscow as the third Rome...

That weird-looking goose-step march seems to have been endemic in Central and Eastern europe, even today. I've read the Wehrmacht specifically banned teaching the silly thing to line units - it was only used in those big parades the Nazis so liked. It's still staple in East European military parades, AFAIK.

[Byzantine Prince]

The Duck walk is not Prussian. Where did you get that? The duck walk is roman. Even greece still has a slower form of the duckwalk from the eastern roman period.

[Watchman]

The Prussians are the most likely route for the silly thing to find its way into the German military, naturally. I mean, after the Unification "German military" was probably more or less synonymoys with "Prussian" in most things...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It's Goose Step not duck walk.
And it is from Brandenburg.

[Byzantine Prince]

Whatever dudes, Italy had it as well.

[Shadow]

So you say the salute is from Rome and all this time I thought it have some connection with the Americans Pledge of Allegiance which also have a straight-arm salute. After all they are all socialists

[Byzantine Prince]

Sure that makes sense you misunderstood.

After all America=Centre of the World.

[Kraxis]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off. The Nazis made a lot of vague references to Rome in general - I've been told the concept of "Third Reich" placed Berlin as the "third Rome", the first two having been Rome (duh) and Byzantium. They obviously ignored the far older Russian claim of Moscow as the third Rome...

That weird-looking goose-step march seems to have been endemic in Central and Eastern europe, even today. I've read the Wehrmacht specifically banned teaching the silly thing to line units - it was only used in those big parades the Nazis so liked. It's still staple in East European military parades, AFAIK.

Yeah, the Nazis certainly ripped a lot off from Rome, but the Third Reich wasn't one of them. The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire at its peak, you know when the emperor actually controlled his subjects (the Ottos), the Second Reich was the one that fought the world alongside Austria-Hungaria in WWI. At least that is what I have been taught. It was meant to indicate that Germany would always remain strong and would always come back regardless of its misfortunes.

On the Goose Step I am being general, so don't think I picking on you Watchman.
The Goose Step, directly translated, is 'Stretch March'. I wonder why it is called Goose Step (never heard about that name before I came to this thread), but Stretch March is rather fitting given you have to keep the legs streight and slam the feet down.
While it might have been used in Italy it was a thing adopted from the old Imperial army, which was in fact based on the Prussian armies. So the Germans used what they had always been using (as far as they themselves thought). And yes, it was never used in combat or even on the march, it was made for a grand spectacle but it is taxing on the physique, so any military value it has not.
Wether it is silly or not depends on what you are looking for. If it is silly because it is only used for parades, then it is equally silly with dressuniforms and other paradethings (like the 'Look right/left' order when marching or standing still). If you look at it from a coordination viewpoint then it is in fact a rather impressive thing, and quite refined. Well I at least consider it so.

[Byzantine Prince]

You are mostly right. The second Reich was started at Versailles on January 18, 1871, German Empire, the Second Reich with Wilhelm II in the throne.

[Kraxis]

You are mostly right. The second Reich was started at Versailles on January 18, 1871, German Empire, the Second Reich with Wilhelm II in the throne.

Where is that different from what I said? It is exactly the same as the one that fought WWI. Now I didn't mention when it was created as I couldn't remember when it was formed, but I know that it started out with Wilhelm I who died somewhere in the 1890's I think. Wilhelm II was the militaristic monarch who 'gave' Germany a fleet and managed to get alliances so that WWI was unavoidable for Germany.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

We used to use the straight arm salute until it became associated with the Nazi's. I once saw a picture from a really old highschool yearbook and it shows the whole school doing it.

[lars573]

The facist salute which is what the nazi straight-arm salute is called these days is Roman in origin. But Mussollini only ever used half of it. The full salute started with the troops putting their closed right fist to their left shoulder then swing their arm up and out and opening their hand, you see a good rendition in the mirror mirror episode of star trek of all places. When I was watching a doc about Mussollini on hisotry TV they showed a relif of Legionaries parading in triumph in front of the emperor and they are all giving the facist salute. But they in the picture only the troopers who have passed the emperor have their arm extended the ones who haven't have their fist held to their shoulder. Also the emperor was returning the troops saluting with that broken armed wave thing that Hitler liked to do.

As for the goose step you can find many armies everywhere who still use it for formal parades. But I've only ever seem it done in N.Korean parades and Chinese ones too.

The whole third reich thing goes like this. First reich the holy roman empire of Chuck the best (Charlemagne). Second reich the empire of Bismarch and Wilhelm (WW1 germany).

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

[Shadow]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

Sorry I don't understand you I only speak English

[Kraxis]

lars, the Russians use it still, though it is a rather slow and deliberate march only used for guards. You know the three guards that march around at the Unknown Soldier's grave and such places. But they added to the march the swinging of arms, which makes it look even more out of place. Inf act they love he swinging march so much that they actually use it in normal marching as well. And with those striped shirts they have they end up looking like a bunch of brawdy sailors.

[Ser Clegane]

Ob sturmt oder sneit ob die sonne uns lacht!
der tag gleihend heiss oder eiskalt sie nacht!
Sorry I couldnt resist myself.
Seig Heil!

8 spelling errors (not counting the Umlaut, but counting the error in the last line)

I'm gonna ask your German-teacher to give you an F

Sorry, I couldn't resist myself either...

[Byzantine Prince]

Lol I knew there was a lot wrong with that even though im not really that fluent in German.

I do NOW agree with that the goose-step is from Prussia though. Even though that wasn't the initial topic.

[Shadow]

8 spelling errors (not counting the Umlaut, but counting the error in the last line)

I'm gonna ask your German-teacher to give you an F

Sorry, I couldn't resist myself either...

So what does it mean ?

[Ser Clegane]

So what does it mean ?

It's the first two lines of a song sung by German tank crews in WWII

Here is an English translation of the (seemingly) complete lyrics (the translation is not literal in each and every word, but that's a bit hard for a song anyway; the lines quoted by Capo are in bold):

In blizzard or storm,
Or in sun warm and bright,
The day hot as hell
Or bone-chilling be the night,
Our faces may with dust be laid,
But spirits never fade,
No, never fade;
Relentless, our tank
Thunders out on a raid.

With engines a-howling,
Fast as is the wind,
We head for the foe,
Safe, as we're in armor skinned.
Our comrades still behind us roam;
We fight the foe alone,
Yes, fight alone.
We stab through the line
To break the foes backbone.

Whenever the foe
May appear in our sight,
We'll ram throttle full,
Then we'll humble all his might!
Of what use is our life if we
Our country serve freely?
Yes, serve freely!
To die for our country,
Our honour shall be.

With tank traps and mines,
Our foe tries to impede.
We laugh at his ruses;
We know he'll not suceed.
And when, in threat, his cannons stand,
Half hidden in the sand,
Yes, in the sand,
We can find our way
Over much safer land.

And should at long last,
Fickle Lady Luck leave,
And we remain here,
Leaving family to grieve,
A bullet with our name on it,
Find us and seal our fate,
Yes, seal our fate,
Our tank will our grave be
On that final date.

Link

P.S.: I am actually not familiar with that one - had to look it up myself. So don't expect me to be an expert on the topic

[Suppiluliumas]

Here's an interesting example, ironically, from the latest Rome derby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...pe/4163979.stm

[Byzantine Prince]

HAHAHAHA!!!! Look at his face while he does the salute. That is prescious. LMAO!!!

[Shadow]

Here's an interesting example, ironically, from the latest Rome derby.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...pe/4163979.stm

This thread was created due to this incident as my friend a Lazio fan ask me for help on the salute.

by the way, Ser Clegane thanks alot for the translation.

[Strategy]

AFAIK the salute is a Roman rip-off.

The Fascist salute has nothing to do with the Romans, except perhaps in the fevered minds of Benito Mussolini and early 20th century film-makers.

There is no ancient evidence - textual or iconographic - to even indicate that the raised straight-arm salute was Roman (and no, the so-called Equestrian salute of Marcus Aurelius is not a straight arm salute and is probably better described as a benevolent wave, IMO).

The evidence - such as there is - for a specific Roman military salute all point toward it being a simple touch of the helmet quite similar to military salutes of today (see e.g., the Ahenobarbus relief or the grave monument of Flavius Mikkalus).

Again, regarding "the duck walk" or any other march step, there is no evidence to link it in any shape or form to the Ancient Romans (or Greeks for that matter). There isn't particular good evidence to even show that they drilled marching in step, let alone how they did so.

[Shadow]

-Quote-
Mr Di Canio has spoken

The Derby della Capitale still isn’t over, as Paolo Di Canio defends his controversial celebrations and slams Roma’s star players.

The veteran was a key figure in the 3-1 victory on Jan 6, scoring the opening goal, but was caught by photographers’ lenses in what appeared to be a Nazi salute after the final whistle.

“I had only gone to the sidelines in order to experience this win with the fans,” assured the lifelong Lazio supporter.

“There were many photographers there and they can take hundreds of pictures per minute with those new cameras. I only had my arm raised for a second, but they made it seem like something it wasn’t.”


This shows the power of the media

[Shadow]

The Fascist salute has nothing to do with the Romans, except perhaps in the fevered minds of Benito Mussolini and early 20th century film-makers.

There is no ancient evidence - textual or iconographic - to even indicate that the raised straight-arm salute was Roman (and no, the so-called Equestrian salute of Marcus Aurelius is not a straight arm salute and is probably better described as a benevolent wave, IMO).

The evidence - such as there is - for a specific Roman military salute all point toward it being a simple touch of the helmet quite similar to military salutes of today (see e.g., the Ahenobarbus relief or the grave monument of Flavius Mikkalus).

Again, regarding "the duck walk" or any other march step, there is no evidence to link it in any shape or form to the Ancient Romans (or Greeks for that matter). There isn't particular good evidence to even show that they drilled marching in step, let alone how they did so.

So who am I to believe ?