Should Carthage have archers?

[Arkatreides]

I dunno, it feels a bit strange that of all the factions the carthaginians have no archers (while their neighbours the Numidians get them at the lowest level of archery range). What do you guys think?

[Kraxis]

Had this discussion some time back.
Carthage didn't use archers all that much (but they were used), but then again neither did Rome and they still get Roman Archers. Also given that archers are rather powerful in the game it is a serious weakness for Carthage not to have any archers, beyond those they hire.
It is also interesting that the Numidian Archers are in fact Cathagenian Archers.

So all in all go for it.

[Ziu]

It is also interesting that the Numidian Archers are in fact Cathagenian Archers.

Really never noticed that. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
Carthage drew it's missile cav ect from the numidians.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Didn't Rome use their archers to basically pepper the enemy before sending in the legionarries?
I wish archers were more available as them, but they did rely on mercs for most of their troops anyway.

[Maedhros]

I might be confused, but I think Roman archers were rare until the reforms, and then still not in heavy use until the Emperial period.


Carthage is strong enough with horse, a good player can compensate for a lack of missiles. Especially with masses of slingers which I almost like better.

[Red Harvest]

Correct, Rome used velites during Republican times, while archer use was rare. "Polybian legions" contained velites, but no archers as core units. And the employment of velites and such was probably given a boost by enemies of Rome such as the Samnites (ca. 350-300 BC) who used more mobile/harassing tactics to deal the early Roman armies some serious defeats.

If you look through the unit files, you will find a lot of minor factions units have unit file names of major factions including Carthage. Names like: carthage_scutarius, carthaginian_slinger_merc, carthage_bull_warrior, carthage_numidian_javelinman, carthage_numidian_cavalry.

From what I've read, the Carthaginian archer was probably meant to represent Mauritanean archers (which would have come from Carthaginian settlements I think.) Carthage might not have actually fielded any of their own archers (not including mercs) in the Punic wars up until Hannibal's last ditch defense of Carthage at Zama. So the rub is that in the game, Numidia has control of the region that would be Mauritanea rather than Carthage. This is of course due to the fact that it is difficult to show thin strips of Carthaginian coastal outposts in the game vs. regions. Plus, CA probably needed to do something to fill out Numidia's unit card against all those nasty Egyptian bowmen.

Having Carthage rely on the Balearics makes some sense from a historical standpoint. Alas, archery is very powerful in the game and the Romans get access to archers, so what should just be a "cultural difference" in the armies becomes a critical difference instead.

[King Azzole]

Carthage does have archers... they are riding cool elephants

[SkyElf]

Yes they should have archers available to them in there unit build types!

[Barbarossa82]

Surely Carthage should at least have access to jav cav (Numidian cav)?

[Red Harvest]

Surely Carthage should at least have access to jav cav (Numidian cav)?

Yes, in many ways this is more relevant than the Carthaginian archer debate in an historical sense, but the issues are linked. The jav cav were Numidian and Numidia is a separate faction...so I suppose that is why CA has not given them to Carthage. However, Carthage can recruit quite a few as mercs. The one thing that slows me down tackling Numidia as Carthage is their cav. I have to buy enough mercs to counter those fast light cav (on VH.)

It would probably make sense to allow building the Numidian cav as Carthage with a region restriction (only in specific Numidian provinces.) It seems logical to allow some limited building of "signature" units of other factions but only in the appropriate provinces. For that matter, Numidian/Carthaginian archers might be limited to Mauritania. Balearics as buildable units could be limited to the island.

[powdermonkey]

Could someone post how to mod the carthaginian archers so they are available for carthage?

Do you just add "carthage" after the entry for them in the practice range etc. under export_buildings_blah file?

Thanks

[Arkatreides]

You need to mod export_descr_buildings.txt and export_descr_units.txt.

In export_descr_buildings.txt you need to add carthage, (don't forget the trailing comma) to where they can be build for numida.

In export_descr_units.txt you need to add cartahge to the final line of the carthaginian archers.

This will work BUT they will be represented as peasants on their unit cards (but as archers on the battlemap). There is little you can do about this without some more elaborate modding.

[powdermonkey]

Thanx Archatreides.

I've just started modding - have been reading up n havin a go today.

I've copied the numidian card to the carthaginians in the pak files (extraxted with vercingetorix's tool).

I guess I've got to repack the file now for it to work?
Is there a tool for doing this?

Cheers

[lars573]

From what I have read the few archers that Carthage did have were recruited from Numidia. And that the troops drawn from north africa were though (by the Carthaginians anyway) to be superior to their iberian tribal levies.

[Kraxis]

And that the troops drawn from north africa were though (by the Carthaginians anyway) to be superior to their iberian tribal levies.

That was the Poeni-Lybian levies. You know Hannibal's african contingent of infantry. They were good, easily the match of Roman heavies, but in rather short supply. They had nothing to do with the Numidians.

[Barbarossa82]

I appreciate that Carthage relied heavily on mercenaries for its armies and that's why they can't recruit archers or numidian cavalry directly. But shouldn't their heavy historical reliance on mercs (and their deep pockets) be cause enough for giving them easier access to mercs than other factions? Maybe they should get a bonus on the number of units popping up in other provinces, or should be able to train certain key mercenary types (archers, jav cav, scutarii) by themselves?

[Wrangel]

Well as most other thing that seam a little out of order in this game they are fixed in the "Rome Total Realism" mod. For example Carthage is given archers among other things.

[Red Harvest]

I appreciate that Carthage relied heavily on mercenaries for its armies and that's why they can't recruit archers or numidian cavalry directly. But shouldn't their heavy historical reliance on mercs (and their deep pockets) be cause enough for giving them easier access to mercs than other factions? Maybe they should get a bonus on the number of units popping up in other provinces, or should be able to train certain key mercenary types (archers, jav cav, scutarii) by themselves?

If you go to the descr_mercenaries.txt file you can do much of what you have suggested. You can't give Carthage a higher probability in the various pools (relative to other factions), but you can increase the changes of recruiting some of the mercs they traditionally had. I've been planning to modify this file myself.

I've been thinking of adding Cretan archers to the "pool Sicily" Sicily already has access to Balearics, but Cretans were recruited during the Punic Wars as well by all three groups on Sicily...and are nowhere handy to be found. Another way that *might* work is to add a new pool for the province of Carthage itself. That way you could give access through the capital to merc scutarii and Cretan archers, etc. at a frequency you find appropriate. I admit I'm partial to the Sicily idea though, because it makes Siciliy more worth fighting for among the Romans/Greeks/Carthaginians. It was a real hot spot in the first two Punic Wars.

[Kraxis]

I've been thinking of adding Cretan archers to the "pool Sicily" Sicily already has access to Balearics, but Cretans were recruited during the Punic Wars as well by all three groups on Sicily...and are nowhere handy to be found. Another way that *might* work is to add a new pool for the province of Carthage itself. That way you could give access through the capital to merc scutarii and Cretan archers, etc. at a frequency you find appropriate. I admit I'm partial to the Sicily idea though, because it makes Siciliy more worth fighting for among the Romans/Greeks/Carthaginians. It was a real hot spot in the first two Punic Wars.

Adding the Spanish Mercs at least to Carthage province would be fair enough. Carthage had a reputation for hiring mercs so naturally they flocked there. Even Barbarian Mercenaries could be added...

But the problem we face is that Carthage ends up using a lot more money on troops than everyone else, and Carthage is certainly not as rich as the real Carthage was.

[Mountaindew]

i feel that archery is a powerful and decisive factor in this game, more than STW and MTW, and im a fan of archery...carthage should have access to archers...not just archers on elephants, but actual foot archers, but even better, horse archers.

but i guess that their lack of missile troops, is, as Maedhros, is compensated with their rather extensive range of melee foot and cavalry units...and remember that elephants, i feel, are crucial for any successful Carthaginian army...sheer power and speed against range and prudence...

hmm...shuld try the carthaginians sometime...currently computer is being fixed, so im using comps in internet cafes....