Rock / Paper / Scissors

[theguilduser005]

Hi there -

I've read the faqs, etc, but this one really stumps me.

In games like C&C Generals the game is balanced using a rock/paper/scissors strategy: My RPG troops kills your tank, which kills my Gattling tank which kills your RPG troups etc... rendering the whole 'rush in mid-game with a single unit type' strategy useless since there are ALWAYS counter units.

But in RTW EARLY GAME I see no such thing. For example I play Jullii med/med.
I easily wipe out Gaul, Germany, etc. by using hastatii + general, 20 stacks.
I'm the largest faction, etc.

BUT IF Macedonians attack me with 20 stack Lancers Cavalery...."Amusingly", since I don't have access to Archers or triarii just yet (THIS IS EARLY GAME) , I throw my Hastati 20 stack at them, that's all I can do anyway. And they get WIPED out in 3 minutes, all routing, with Macedonian pursuing and finishing them off.

I looked in the various forums and the only answers I found were:
1) build archers/ triaarii
== I CANT , it's EARLY game. Think 5 turn into the game
2) keep your hastatis still, it limits the charge effect
== Yup am doing that too, not too much effect

Am at a loss here.. I also tried building 20 stack cavalery myself.. amusingly it makes the game disturbingly easy... nothing can stop it. It' just a matter of charging , flanking and breaking their formation, you get to win with 20 lossess and they lose 2000 + men.

I must be missing something, please Help!

S.

[FURRY_BOOTS]

i tend not to attack civilized factions until later in the game, not until i can counter them with appropriate units, but if theyve came looking for you then i would just run,seek peace agrrements or anything just to stop them until you get those triari. But hastati in deep formation ie 10 deep should be able to stand there ground

[The Storyteller]

Your Hastati ought to be able to massacre the light lancers. They're really not that good. Here are some suggestions:

a) Always try to have SOME cavalry around. It's not so much their killing power you're after, early game, it's their mobility. You can use your infantry to pin and your cavalry to flank. Your general, if you have no equities, will suffice. Your hastati will be able to hold for a little while, long enough for your general to flank a coupole of units and rout them. Every unit that routs frees up another hastati unit to deal with the enemies, so once your general routs one unit, the freed up hastati can flank the next light lancer unit your next hastati unit is facing, and your general can charge it from the rear. And so on and so forth.

b) Get some velites up and running. Have them fire into melee, even if they kill some Hastati. I think the enemy will lose more troops.

c) Try to fight defensively. Siege their cities and force them to attack you. Or just hold your ground in a strategic location that the AI cannot pass up and wait for the attacks to come. All things being equal, it's a common military maxim that defenders have a three to one advantage. Pick favourable ground such as woods, or a hilltop.

d) Get involved in sieges. Hole yourself up in a castle and let the enemy siege you (the AI gets obsessive-compulsive and overly hung up on cities. It will forever siege the same city until it gets it). They will try to build siege equipment, and early in the game, what with the wooden pallisades and all, that means battering rams. Wait till you see where the enemy is battering. Then haver your hastati wait right at the opening. One directly in front of the opening, one on either side of it. The cavalry will rush through. Your men can then pin it in place and flank it from both sides. The fact that the small gap is filled with cavalry means that no additional units can gain much of a charge bonus. If you can muster just one unit of cavalry, you can send it out of an additional opening and have it smash into the enemy's rear.

e) Use expendable units such as peasants (or even velites, if you position them in front of your lines) to blunt the light lancers' charge. Without their charge bonus, light lancers are not much of a threat. When the l;ancers get bogged down, charge them with your hastati.

[theguilduser005]

Thanks guys for all this good advice... I'll try this tonight :)

[Red Harvest]

Welcome to RTW: The cavalry management game. Seriously, cavalry is all you really need in this game even on very hard, the upkeep is ridiculously cheap and the units are very powerful. Hopefully the patch will address these problems. Those light lancers get some really big charge bonuses +15!!!, and the AI will use that. That's 7 base attack plus 15 charge for an attack of 22...on medium. On very hard add 7 to get 29.

So as Roman factions early in the game, buy mercs. Merc hoplites can be arranged in a line in phalanx to blunt a cavalry charge (and they are available in areas where you run into those light lancers.) You need more than one hoplite unit though to make strong point that won't collapse easily as other units are pushed back. Buy Samnite mercs, they get +4 against horses--not enough to counteract that massive charge, but it is better than nothing, and they are available in your home provinces. Buy Cretan archers or Balearic slingers if you can find them.

Forgot to mention: seek out the Macedonian cities building all those horsemen and take them quickly. That way you can start equite production (and slow down the enemy cav production at the same time.) Your main building priority as Romans will be getting some cav production ASAP.

[Red Harvest]

Your Hastati ought to be able to massacre the light lancers. They're really not that good. Here are some suggestions:

They look awfully good in combat. Those light lancers have a base 7 attack vs. 7 for hastati...and when they charge they get a bonus of an additional 15. That's just on medium. On VH they get another +7 added to their attack. They cost 370 vs. 440 for hastati. Upkeep is only 140, vs. 170 for hastati. Their secondary melee weapon is sword and they get a 9 melee rating with it. They have poor defensive stats, but with such high offense, they steamroll over opposition before it can inflict much damage. When I've played as the Bruttii the only real problem I had was dealing with those nearly full stacks of light lancers attacking every turn for awhile.

[Darius]

Oddly enough, I've found that putting my infantry in loose formation when expecting a charge helps them better absorb the shock. Then, once the enemy horsemen are deep within my ranks, I order them to close their formation. Now the Horsemen are deprived of their best asset, their speed and mobility. If youre not willing to let your better troops take the brunt of this charge, I've also found that any unit that utilizes the "horde" formation takes the hit real well. So you may actually want to bring peasants for once as a human shield.

[dismal]

I think one of the signature accomplishments of RTW is that it's credibly possible to argue that both units and their counters are over-powered in the same breath.

In reality, this issue may be more that the AI is underpowered.

Give me 4 units of phalanx and I can probably beat the AI's 4 units of cav with minimal losses. Give me the same 4 units of cav and the AI the phalanx and I can probably reverse the outcome.