Observations of playing at Huge units.

**Si GeeNa** · 01-14-2005, 03:29

I tried Huge units, of 120 men, recently with Oda in 1530. It was an Expert campaign.

What I realised is that since it takes 2 turns to build any unit, it is by far better to withdraw the unit after taking damage than allow yourself to forget about it.

Further, Cavalry now costs 1000+ koku to build. This casts another severe limitation to the strategic choices of the non-Takeda clans. In fact, even Warrior Monks require at least 1000 koku to build.

I believe that this means that the game has increased in its subterfuge game as Shinobis, Emissaries and Ninjas still costs the same and at 1 turn to build. It also means that its very hard to steam roll in this game with 16+ stacks of armies.

Mosts of the armies would be built around the low-level bread and butter units such as Yari Sam and Ashi. You find the occasional Warrior Monk and No-Dachis and use them cautiously, seeking to inflict the crucial back-breaking blow without much loss. Mind you, retraining the decimated Warrior Monk may not take 2 seasons but will take at least 800 koku.

Many infrastructure remain at rather low-levels as the expenses of the armies have increased without the corresponding rise in koku per province. Progress is more incremental compared to playing at small units.

Rebels become a more difficult faction to deal with. Uprisings occur every other turn and I saw Takeda bleed to death in Mino, settling insurrection every turn. (He sure gained alot of experience but he couldn't do anything else. Shinano was overrun by Rebels.) I have no justification for the insurrection but I think having only 300 men in his army doesn't give him enough popular support.

I have great fun at small units but the games were typically over within 30-50 turns. I think that playing Huge units offer a different dimension and allows a more historic composition of the armies.

**Togakure** · 01-20-2005, 07:10

These are interesting observations and I'm glad you have shared them. Shogun is easily my favorite game of all time and I have played thousands of games, but I haven't tried the larger unit setting. Based on what you have described, I think it will add a fresh new dimension to the game, which I've needed. The only concern I have is that my old PC may not handle the larger armies well in large battles. I guess I can autocalc them if they don't run well (though I hate doing this because I am a much better tactical commander than is the AI).

Thanks again for pointing this out.

**Quietus** · 01-20-2005, 08:42

I used Yari Samurai and archers in the center. Then shock troops No-Dachi in the flanks. I rarely used Warrior Monks, even less Heavy Cavalry. Then one or two Yari Cavalry, that's it.

I remember when I encountered the infamous Hojo Horde playing as Shimazu. I had to quit since I was new to the game then. Everytime I break an army, another 5 pops up

The bridge provinces were a pain to capture so steamrolling over those was tough and I just autocalculate.

However, the strategic ritual of positioning your troops was still the best!! MTW doesn't even come close (boring, too easy and predictable)! The battle is always in the balance, you're not sure which side will break. The enemy Daimyo can even break the mighty, defensive Naginata. Usually when the enemy Daimyo gets through, then the whole line crumbles. Just amazing

As for the structures, you only need a couple or so provinces to continuosly pump troops, the rest serve as economic cog.

**Drisos** · 01-21-2005, 11:27

have tried the larger unit setting only in single (SP) battles, i found it very difficult to win, but i liked to fight with a larger army(twice the men!).

the daimyo's heavy cavalry is very strong indeed and useful in battle, but if his army flees, the daimyo will flee too and against any yari unit his men will fall within seconds and if he can't get away, you've lost an important member of the clan . . .

**HunkinElvis** · 01-27-2005, 09:43

One thing I noticed is that when you have 3 opponents with huge units you have very little room to get behind them. That's unless you play at a large map.

**Wilbo** · 01-27-2005, 12:56

I was wondering whether you could use the Spartan idea to completely nail the one flank of an army while simply holding the rest back. I guess if you use units of spearmen on hold formation to just plain stop most of the army and then hit them with as much as you can on one flank (hopefully outnumber that flank 3 to 1 or something), it should crumble with enough time for you to get some units behind their army.

**gatoshin** · 02-05-2005, 15:40

Interesting. I'd always played with 120-man units, assuming that the smaller unit sizes existed to ease up the hardware requirements. Hadn't thought about the tactical and strategic implications until now. But I suppose bridge crossings are easier, units easier to maneuver and position, and the daimyo's heavy cav contingent more valuable with the 60-man default setting.

**HunkinElvis** · 02-06-2005, 11:28

Originally Posted by Wilbo

I was wondering whether you could use the Spartan idea to completely nail the one flank of an army while simply holding the rest back. I guess if you use units of spearmen on hold formation to just plain stop most of the army and then hit them with as much as you can on one flank (hopefully outnumber that flank 3 to 1 or something), it should crumble with enough time for you to get some units behind their army.

I'll try that.

I noticed that yari and ashi units last longer when I put them in a hold position. That's useful for keeping the enemy units busy while I flank them.
What I usually did was wait for the enemy to attack while I shot the enemy down.

**gatoshin** · 02-09-2005, 11:21

I'd been playing huge units all along, but today I started a Uesugi campaign using 60-man units.

Wow, what a difference. When I play using 120-man units, I always have to scrounge for enough troops to protect my borders and still attack my neighbors. Using smaller units, I have no problem churning out massive armies and my economy seems to be tearing right along due to reduced maintenance costs.

In short, a game which actually challenged me from time to time, became ridiculously easy. The whole eastern half of Japan fell in no time flat. Maybe I'll try an intermediate unit size in order to balance the better strategic gameplay of the 120-man setting against the better tactical battles you can have with 60-man units.

**HicRic** · 02-10-2005, 15:30

gatoshin, do you play on Expert? If you want a harder game, try that. Of course if you already play on that then there's no point.

I played a game on 120 unit size last week. The Ronin destroyed three clans and took almost two-thirds of the map!

Of course, the clans later re-emerged and eventually took the Ronin lands back..but still. Not something you see every day!

I would have rolled over the rebels and taken their land as my own but I decided to turtle to see what would happen.

**gatoshin** · 02-12-2005, 02:26

I prefer not to play on Expert because it affects my sense of immersion when every harvest is miserable and every border province gets attacked every turn. Also, the constant battles overwhelm the strategic map and it begins to feel like I'm simply playing a bunch of unrelated scenarios instead of pursuing the title of Shogun.