Mother of all bugs--missile and melee

[Red Harvest]

Wow! A fellow over at twcenter figured out that CA appears to have a major bug in the missile vs. melee stats (pri and sec in units files respectively.) In melee the missile stat is being used instead of the secondary stat. I did the following to confirm:

Test 1.
Default Numidian Javelinmen (skirmishers) attacking one unit of Principes. Turn off skirmish, turn off fire at will, charge the Numidian at the Romans as you close using ALT attack. The Numidians switch to their knives (visible in animation.) Result--lots of dead Numidians, no dead Principes.

Test 2.
Mod primary (missile) stat for the Numidian Javelinmen from 6 to 20. Turn off skirmish, turn off fire at will, charge the Romans as you close using ALT attack. The Numidians switch to their knives again, and nearly whip the Principes, inflicting ~75% casualties before routing.

Test 3.
Up the missile attack of Numidians to 30. Repeat...and the Numidians beat the Principes narrowly.

Considering Numidians have very low defense, and Principes very high defense, this makes sense if the game is using missile stats for melee. Add to this the realization that Principes have 11 missile attack and 16 defense... 11 + 16 = 27 while in test 2 Numidia was getting 20 + 4 = 24... a little short.

Lots more testing to go...but this could make sense of a lot of wierd goings on in the game.

No wonder most infantry sucks versus Rome's infantry...they are using the danged pila attack value! And those chariot archers? Are they using their high missile attack for melee? How about Balearics and Forester Warbands?

[zhuge]

Dear me, that's a HUGE bug.... but it kinda makes sense too in a way... I've been reading reports on the official forums that state that skirmishers seem to do quite well in melee against cavalry which they shouldn't (I've experienced this myself as well, to a certain extent). I guess we have the answer now and your tests confirm the issue.
Might be applicable to archers too as you said. Wouldn't surprise me. They appear to do quite well Vs cav when charging, which is odd.

If it's a general "missile value taken instead of melee" switch for all units, I suppose we'd need a hardcoded fix for it. Can't see how we can mod it. Hope it's already in the coming patch, since it's already with Activision for testing... otherwise we'll have to wait a long time to get this one rectified... till an expansion?

Thanks for the notification.

[sapi]

Does this work the other way round too?
I wouldn't think so, as the foresters still have good missile too...

[AquaLurker]

That explain why I was able to kill 5 cataphracts with 20 archers in melee lol.

[Red Harvest]

Missile stats actually work for missile attack. I've tested and modded the missile attack enough to know that it is working properly off its own stat (although I have not checked to see if the secondary stat might be contributing as well.) What I didn't know, but is now obvious, is that the missile stats are also getting used for melee!

And we've been wondering why skirmishers fought so well in melee at times! Turns out the little buggers have been using their rather high missile attack values as melee. If they had decent defense they would be great frontline infantry.

[zhuge]

Wasn't too clear. I meant missile values were taken instead of melee for all units which have a missile attack. I agree that it doesn't occur the other way round. Sorry for the bad wording.

The original post on this at the TW forums:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...howtopic=19393

I'm quite upset... can't see sitting down to play a serious game with these kinda bugs around...

[zhuge]

In case we need to live with this bug... could we mod down ALL missile values. Red Harvest was suggesting taking off about one-third of missile attack for various units in that Rock/Scissors/Paper thread. I believe that would put missile attack at about the same values as melee... or at least closer. What units have the biggest missile Vs melee difference?

Dunno... I really hope CA fixes this one.

EDIT: This probably isn't that important... comparatively... but could we also confirm/refute if charge bonuses are working properly for missile units.
I mean I see Forester Warbands getting a Missile attack of 15 and a charge value of 5 for it and a Melee attack of 11 and a charge value of 8 for the melee weapon. So which charge value is actually used? I'm getting pretty confused.

[Colovion]

In case we need to live with this bug... could we mod down ALL missile values. Red Harvest was suggesting taking off about one-third of missile attack for various units in that Rock/Scissors/Paper thread. I believe that would put missile attack at about the same values as melee... or at least closer. What units have the biggest missile Vs melee difference?

Dunno... I really hope CA fixes this one.

hopefully they caught it in the patch

wow I wish there was like a list of fixes that will be in the patch so that if there was any glaring missing bugs they could be fixed in a more proactive fashion

[zhuge]

Just a thought. If you click Alt making them switch to a secondary weapon before charge does that affect the outcome? Or do they still use their missile attack regardless.

[Arkatsson]

That is one strange bug. But we shouldn't mod it. Because doesn't the missle stat also tells how much damage the arrow or javalin does?

[Sinner]

Nope, the attack stats determine the chance of hitting, not the damage.

Just a thought. If you click Alt making them switch to a secondary weapon before charge does that affect the outcome? Or do they still use their missile attack regardless.

As Red Harvest says in the original post, using the Alt attack changes nothing, they still use the stat of the missile attack in melee.

[aw89]

I just lost all my willingness to play RTW...

[zhuge]

As Red Harvest says in the original post, using the Alt attack changes nothing, they still use the stat of the missile attack in melee.

Oops, curse me for not reading properly before posting. Sorry.
I saw Captain Fishpants around a couple of hours ago. Not sure if he noticed this thread though. I'm hoping we can get an early readme on patch fixes next week.
The thread at the official forums on this bug:
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=19194.topic

[Kraxis]

Arrrgh!

This is really bad news! Especially since the patch has been sent to Q&A... So if this isn't fixed, then we might have to wait more (can't believe they won't get the money to fix this from Activision).

[Red Harvest]

Arrrgh!

This is really bad news! Especially since the patch has been sent to Q&A... So if this isn't fixed, then we might have to wait more (can't believe they won't get the money to fix this from Activision).

Surely they had identified and fixed this...after the stamina and stat_heat bugs, surely they went through to check to see that all unit stats actually worked as designed. If they didn't then they are just plain sloppy. I can easily understand the other original bugs, but this one is the straw...or perhaps bail of hay...that broke the camel's back.

Heck, they now have to REBALANCE the WHOLE GAME! None of the base Roman units are right in their attack. Instead of "7" they are getting 11. No wonder they cut through Iberian infantry like they were unarmed peasants. You can imagine what this must be doing to autocalc. No wonder I found infantry useless vs. Rome when playing Carthage. Playing as Rome is going to become a lot tougher when this is fixed. That is a good thing.

It had been obvious that traditional infantry was getting the shaft, but only now is the extent of the problem becoming clear.

[Khan of ED]

The thing i want to ask is:
do missile units use their melee stats when they run out of ammo?

[The_678]

Wow this bug really sucks and better be fixed in the patch. I've always thought that the Roman infantry seemed really tough, but never realized it was a bug.

[Ar7]

Well now I know why on a hard difficulty my Roman genereal was cut down to the last man by Cretan archers after a frontal charge

[Spino]

Ye gods what a bug!

I must echo other people's posts when I say I sincerely hope and pray that CA has recognized and addressed this bug in the upcoming patch!

The fact that the most active and fanatical modding members of the TW community missed this bug does not fill me with optimism. After all, if the hardcore fans missed it then it is quite plausible that CA could have overlooked it as well!

Oh well, if it's not fixed in the upcoming patch then there's sure to be another patch to follow. The TW community will surely go bananas if this bug isn't fixed and Activision decides to wait until the expansion to patch the game further.

[Boudicca]

This one really leaves me speechless... how could they...

This bug really shows that they in fact did anything to keep the release date for RTW. I suppose they balanced the game countering the error by adjusting the swing / attack rates etc...

Very bad indeed....

[ShellShock]

Was this a bug overlooked by CA (easily fixed in the patch), or did they do it deliberately as they could not get melee stats working? I hope not!

[tai4ji2x]

i know people have complained about archers in melee before (i myself have). but is this the first time it's been confirmed by these tests? CAN WE GET A WORD FROM CA WHETHER THEY WERE AWARE OF THIS? :(

[Kraxis]

Was this a bug overlooked by CA (easily fixed in the patch), or did they do it deliberately as they could not get melee stats working? I hope not!

Arh, come on now, since the pikemen and hoplites work with their two types of melee weapons (the secondary clearly weaker) the melee stats obviously work for both sets.

Now I have finally realized why my Triarii (6 units) had so much trouble beating Iberian Infantry defending a square, while my Hastati (1 unit) easily carved a path into them...
It also makes sense now why horse archers and Militia Cavalry are so tough in melee. They seem unstopable when charing. Sadly though, the Numidians seemed to be quite good like they should be (now they will be weak again).

[Red Harvest]

The thing i want to ask is:
do missile units use their melee stats when they run out of ammo?

From the tests I ran today, yes. They keep the erronous missile stat as melee. I did my test by reducing numidian jav count to 2, then whipping the snot out of various units by giving them 20 for a missile attack. They threw their two javs causing high casualties, then tore up Gaul swordsmen and Libyan spearmen in melee.

[Red Harvest]

Elephant archer units like the War Elephants are apparently NOT effected by the bug. Even though the stat_pri is for the archers, the primary attack is the elephants--as seen by the little sword when you hover over an enemy. The missile attack comes from using alt attack (Mr. Bow and Mr. Arrow.) This is different than all other unit types which have the reverse order. This probably also has something to do with elephants effectively being capable of delivering multiple types of attack simultaneously from a single beast. So it might help in coming up with an appropriate hard coded solution--or determining the source of the bug in other units.

The test I ran was to boost the stat_pri for elephant attack (missiles) to something like 25 then tear through some unlucky Gaul swordsmen. I then tried it with a value of 1. In both instances I caused the same approximate level of destruction. Those poor Gauls.

I'm not sure about chariot archers. They suffer in melee from being "brittle" making the tests a bit more challenging. I'll have to tweak them more to see the effect.

The Numidian javelin cav seem to do pretty well in melee vs. those Gaul swordsmen when given high missile attack (20 vs. 9), but the Numidians suffer from being a small unit with low defense so both sides are effectively eliminated. These guys have 6 for secondary attack so while it will weaken them, they won't be incredibly weak for it. They will benefit from the Romans losing an extra 4 from pila attack.

Numidian legionaires have weaker stats than normal legionaires--the same as principes. But give them a high missile stat and they rip the principes a new one.

[Commodus]

This is a sad state of affairs. Either way you look at it... If CA knows about this bug but chose not to share it before the patch release, shame on them for wasting god knows how many hours of this dedicated community trying to figure out what is wrong with this game. If they still don't know of this bug, I've got nothing to say. Don't know which is worse...

[Spino]

Everyone keep in mind Shogun(?), the moderator over at the Com, said CA would make an appeal to Activision for permission to release a preliminary fixlist/readme file to the public while the patch is being tested. If permission is given the readme file should be posted sometime this week.

[hrvojej]

Humph. It most certainly saps out the fun from the game.

[Sid_Quibley]

Did some tests greek peltasts v triarii.

All grassy flatland fire at will off,skirmish off.Alt double click to charge.

peltast at 36 att kill 97 triarii vanilla kill 36
peltast at 36 att kill 113 triarii vanilla kill 7

peltast at 26 att kill 107 triarii vanilla kill 46
peltast at 26 att kill 90 triarii vanilla kill 37

Then I tried charging the peltasts and once they were engaged, alt clicked to see if they switched to sec weapon.

peltast at 36 att kill 113 triarii vanilla kill 65
peltast at 36 att kill 46 triarii vanilla kill 29

peltast at 26 att kill 58 triarii vanilla kill 30
peltast at 26 att kill 87 triarii vanilla kill 27

In conclusion the peltasts would use secondary stats in melee if forced by alt click but only after charge phase.Seems the code will not select the most appropriate stats for any particular melee phase.

[Proletariat]

You know I've bit my tongue regarding criticisms against CA for awhile... And I guess I'll continue to do so until after the patch, but this is gearing up be the last straw.