Teasers

[khelvan]

As I have stated in the past, we can't really give a detailed list of "changes" because in most instances, we're starting from the ground up. When we first release the mod, some portions may not yet be ready, such as our complete new building & temple system, so we may use the vanilla portion until that area is ready. However, in the end, all aspects of the mod will look completely different.

So, having said that, I wanted to give you a little teaser to look forward to. Some have asked for more "diversity" in the barbarian factions. All of our factions will be very diverse. With a self-imposed limit of 12 unique units per faction, we're still struggling to come in under the 300-unit limit that CA arbitrarily imposed. Here is a preview (i.e. not the final version) of the Briton list, in period language:

Belgae Milnaht (Mel-not)
Clyddynion (Cli-thin-ee-on)
Clyddbren (Clith-bron)
Egyddynion (Egg-ith-un-ee-on)
Ffonddynion (Fon-thin-ee-on)
Laoch (Lay-ok-ah)
Maliwyr Charde (Mall-ee-wir Chard-eh)
Rhyfelwyr (Rh-eye-vell-wir)
Rycalawre (Rie-call-a-oo-ree)
Boccydau (Bock-see-deh)
Cidainh (Kid-unk)
Drwmcydau (Drum-key-deh)

The Belgae Milnaht are shared with another faction (Gauls), as well as a mercenary unit, so it does not have the specific name. Just to give you a little more to look foward to, here is a preview of the Belgae Milnaht (with both Briton and Gallic skins; note the woad patterns!):





Cheers,

-khel

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

WOW!

I.

Cannot.

Wait.



If I can buy you guys a drink or maybe some cannolis, I would be happy to.

[Big_John]

psst.. offer to buy them "female entertainment"..

[thrashaholic]

Sorry to be an absolute bore, but your phoenetic spellings of those ancient British words (which seem to be based on Welsh) are wrong, here are some corrections for you:

Clyddynion (Cli-thin-ee-on)
Clyddbren (Clith-bron)
Egyddynion (Egg-ith-un-ee-on)
Ffonddynion (Fon-thin-ee-on)
Laoch (La-och){nb. the ch should be as in a Scottish 'loch' or 'JS Bach'
Maliwyr Charde (Mall-ee-wir Chard-eh){nb. 'ch' as above}
Rhyfelwyr (Rh-eye-vell-wir){nb. 'rh' should be pronounced as 'r' followed by a strong emission of breath}
Rycalawre (Rie-call-a-oo-re)
Boccydau (Bock-see-deh)
Cidainh (Sid-ank){this looks Gaelic, which I don't know about, so I'll leave it}
Drwmcydau (Drum-key-deh)

Welsh is a completely phoentic language, unlike English, so all letters are said and are never propounced obscurely (if you see what I mean by this). I hope this helps, especially if you're doing in game voice re-recordings. Please don't get it wrong though, I've been looking forward to this mod too much to have spoiled by poor pronunciation ; if you have any queries about any other British words though don't hesitate to ask.


Bloody good work on the new units, they look absolutely stunning!

[Ranika]

Actually, the pronunciations aren't based on Welsh, but they are based on a P-Celtic language. I considered using Welsh, but opted not to use it. If it is preferrable, I can change pronunciations, but I just didn't like the way they sounded, mostly. And Laoch is not used in the P-Celtic sense, that's a Q-Celtic word, and Cidainh is a K-Celtic word (but also shows up in Q-Celtic languages).

Welsh may be easier to pronounce, but I used something based on the old Strathclyder dialects, before the Gaelic influences from Dal Riatans. Though, it's mostly reconstructed. Modern Welsh has non-Celtic influences, I kind of wanted to avoid them, but since we're doing a voice mod, I still might change it to Welsh pronunciations, solely to make it easier. The Strathclyder Briton-stuff sounds kind of weird, but it's also older. However, in retrospect...it's goddamn difficult to pronounce a lot of words in it.

For folks who don't get the P, Q, and K stuff; Celtic languages are in three families. P-Celtic, Q-Celtic, and K-Celtic. Of them, K-Celtic languages no longer exist, but that's what Gauls spoke. Q-Celtic are languages like Gaelic. Bretonic and Welsh are P-Celtic. While languages within the families are relatively similar (differences lay in pronunciations and spellings, but one can usually feel through similar languages), the similarities outside of families (Q to P or K) are scant, and one cannot understand a different family of languages remotely through any of a different family of the languages.

As an aside, I've been reconstructing the Strathclyder dialect myself. If you have a lot of experience with P-Celtic languages (not just Welsh, preferrably), it'd be really helpful.

[thrashaholic]

Admittedly modern Welsh has been influenced by other languages, Latin and Norman French mostly and the Goidelic tounges slighty, but it is by far and a way the most authentic Brythonic language around. Other than Welsh there is Breton, but that has been extensively corrupted by French, and, as you say, reconstructions of Cornish and Cumbrian, the real versions of which died out ceturies ago. Personally, because of this, I'd choose to use Welsh, but it's your mod, so your call in end.

[Ranika]

I'm personally torn myself. You know, the languages, none of what we can reconstruct (slowly removing the Goidelic and other influences and so on) will ever be 100% accurate. That's the thing with Welsh though; it's the most accurate AROUND. Hence trying to rebuild one that's more accurate. Either way, we can still use the older spellings, the abbreviated letter masses and all that, so the spellings would be the same; they're not...TOO different than modern Welsh, though where words are placed in relation to one another, how adjectives modify things, and a whole slew of grammatical differences, we can still fudge a bit and use modernized pronunciations, because it's really no less accurate than trying to imitate pronunciations that were only vaguely described by Gaelic speakers (much of the basis for Caledonian dialect reconstructions). Alternatively, I could still use the reconstruction for the Caledonian unit, since that's where I'm trying to reconstruct the language of, and just use Welsh pronunciation for the other units (except, of course, Laoch, and Cidainh, which I'm using early Gaelic pronunciation for, Cidainh in Gallic would have probably been more like 'Kid-unk', not 'Sid-ank'). Thoughts?

[PROMETHEUS]

The photoes tough are for a Belgae unit versus the Briton one and have been changed a little as will probably in future up to be perfectly looking....

[thrashaholic]

I'm personally torn myself. You know, the languages, none of what we can reconstruct (slowly removing the Goidelic and other influences and so on) will ever be 100% accurate. That's the thing with Welsh though; it's the most accurate AROUND. Hence trying to rebuild one that's more accurate. Either way, we can still use the older spellings, the abbreviated letter masses and all that, so the spellings would be the same; they're not...TOO different than modern Welsh, though where words are placed in relation to one another, how adjectives modify things, and a whole slew of grammatical differences, we can still fudge a bit and use modernized pronunciations, because it's really no less accurate than trying to imitate pronunciations that were only vaguely described by Gaelic speakers (much of the basis for Caledonian dialect reconstructions). Alternatively, I could still use the reconstruction for the Caledonian unit, since that's where I'm trying to reconstruct the language of, and just use Welsh pronunciation for the other units (except, of course, Laoch, and Cidainh, which I'm using early Gaelic pronunciation for, Cidainh in Gallic would have probably been more like 'Kid-unk', not 'Sid-ank'). Thoughts?

You clearly have far more experience when it comes to dealing with the Celtic languages than I do, it's just a bit of a hobby for me studying Welsh (because I am Welsh) and to a certain extent Celtic languages as a whole, I don't have this firm grounding in their linguistics as you seem to, so I respect your judgement 100%.

I'm of the opinion though that mordern Welsh pronunciations should be used as these are the only ones we can truly be certain that we've got correct. The range of sounds used won't be that different, and we wouldn't be forced to make educated guesses on the pronunciation like we would with the dead languages. But I can certainly see where you're coming from when it comes to actual words, using modern Welsh words for the Britons is a bit like using modern Italian for Latin. Unfortunately I don't know that much about old Welsh, so I'll leave that to you. In all though I think that modern pronunciations, except for where it's not appropriate/we know otherwise, combined with a more traditional script would produce a fairly realistic compromise.

PS. In answer to your Strathclyder reconstruction, I'm probably not nearly experienced enough to help you, but I'd be very interested in your results if that'd be possible.

[Crazed Rabbit]

While I fully support your plan to use period names for all the units, I was wondering if you could perhaps add translations to the unit names, because otherwise, its just Welsh to me. In the game, we'd be able to read the unit desription, but here...

Keep up the good work!

Crazed Rabbit

[Ranika]

That's why it's a teaser though, and why they were selected to show some of the work in the game; the lack of translations here is intentional. And they're not necessarily in Welsh...though if you speak Welsh you can probably figure out what they are.

Anyway, most of the pronunciations will go to Welsh pronunciations, for the time being; not all of them. Two of the names aren't P-Celtic, so that's just not proper at all, and some of the stuff in the north I may use reconstructed pronunciations with.

[khelvan]

Here is a fun little challenge for you - if you can correctly translate the unit names, I will PM you the unit descriptions.

Cheers,

-khel

[thrashaholic]

Here is a fun little challenge for you - if you can correctly translate the unit names, I will PM you the unit descriptions.

Cheers,

-khel

I've had a little crack, I don't think I've done very well though:

Clyddynion - "club men" (i've assumed the 'cly' is from 'clybio' (to club), all the other possibilities don't seem to work very well, unless it's "cosy men" )
Clyddbren - "royal clubbers"? or "clubbers of the hills"?
Egyddynion - "... men" (no idea about the 'egy' part)
Ffonddynion - "staff/spear men"? or if 'ffon' comes from 'ffon dafl' "sling men"
Maliwyr Charde -"solidiers of the south"? (milwyr is soldier in modern welsh and 'de' means south?)
Rhyfelwyr -"Warriors"
Rycalawre - "... giants?"
Boccydau - "box pouches/bags?" - unless you're using 'cydau' as chariot (cerbydau) in which case replace bag for chariot
Drwmcydau - "heavy pouches/bags?" (as above)

Some of the words just don't fit anything I know or I've been able to look up in my dictionary. I've had to make a couple of wild stabs in the dark (as you can probably tell). But how correct was I?

[khelvan]

Good try! I will send you what you've won

[Big_John]

khel, i hope the units descips you PMed were written in P-celtic or some such language.

[khelvan]

Hah, no, they were in English. Though if you want them that way, I'll send all of them to you like that now ;)

[khelvan]

But, for those of you guessing - this is not modern Welsh. It is a related language, but older! So yes, some things will be shots in the dark!