Using the Human Wall on a Stone one

[th3freakie]

Phalanx - are they usefull in defending a sieged city?

I can easely see how to use them in wood walls, and in the gates of a stone one (ho... the beutifull boiling oil) but what about on the walls themselfs, agaist towers and ladders? Will the pikes turn to the side, or will they just point forward to the air?

[Es Arkajae]

They fight with swords, no room for phalanxes mate.

If you're up against serious opposition (i.e. they're likely to take the walls), then you're probably better off deploying your phalanxes in the streets leading to the city square.

Engage them in street fighting and use your phalanx formations there, in the enclosed spaces they'll slaughter the enemy. Just make sure that they're far enough away from the wall that the tower arrows can't shhot at you once the enemy has captured them.

[MoROmeTe]

Yup, no phalanxes on walls. They are way better in the streets. Just deploy your archers on the wals, if you have them and let them rain arrows on the enemy, not forgetting to take them off the walls and to the town square when the enemy gets his ladders/towers at the walls or when he is about to breach the gate. Create a good defensive position somewhere near the town center or square, whatever the name, by putting the pahalnxes one behind the other. Take you cavalry, should you have any, and prepare to circle the enemy that's bogged down fighting you phalanxes and attack from behind. Watch out for towers shooting at your cavalry. That's how I play defensive...

[Khorak]

Unless your phalanx happens to be a bunch of Spartans. In which case you'll be wishing you could see the looks on the faces of the poor bastards who reach the top of the ladder, and see all these Spartans standing there grinning waiting for them.

[MoROmeTe]

I'd still rather have them on the streets. They're much more effective there. On the walls they are bound to get overrun by the sheer numbers that the enemy can put on the wall.

[Attalus]

Unless your phalanx happens to be a bunch of Spartans. In which case you'll be wishing you could see the looks on the faces of the poor bastards who reach the top of the ladder, and see all these Spartans standing there grinning waiting for them.

LOL

Would they be grinning though? Not very disciplined...grinning!

A couple of Ballista at cross-roads make for good ambushes also!

[Khorak]

I'd still rather have them on the streets. They're much more effective there. On the walls they are bound to get overrun by the sheer numbers that the enemy can put on the wall.

Uh, no, not really. If you set an enemy battering ram on fire and force them to come through Spartans on a wall, they might as well go right the hell home. You can't overrun an enemy on a wall simply due to the tiny front your men can bring to bear, not to mention the horrific slaughter as limited numbers of guys are arriving...in the middle of really angry Spartans. You're only going to 'overrun' Spartan hoplites on a wall with ridiculously overwhelming numbers non-stop, (and you'll only get anywhere after the Spartans are exhausted....and they're still tough even then) or by bringing large numbers of Urban Cohorts along to trash them instead.

It would essentially be engaging Spartans entirely on their terms at what they do best; murdering anyone stupid enough to actually get into a fight with them. You'll either throw away untold hundreds of men trying to sweep Spartans off the walls and claim the gate (then likely lose the fight with the timer as the defenders tarry you through the streets), or having to still lose large numbers of ultra elite soldiers to the piecemeal meatgrinder.

*shudder* The thought of trying to get Spartans off a wall is scary.

[lars573]

I'd still rather have them on the streets. They're much more effective there. On the walls they are bound to get overrun by the sheer numbers that the enemy can put on the wall.

Spoken like someone who has never had to do it. As Parthia I had to face down a Seleucid attempt to take back Hatra. They had phalanganites greek cav peltasts and a general. Actually they had 4 unit of phalanx pikemen each with a siege weapon. In this case 1 siege tower 2 ladders and a ram. My garrison was my Parthian usual of archers eastern meat shields hillmen and some HA. The archers flamed out the siege tower and the ram and the hillmen destroyed the ladder bearing pikemen. Killed every last one with about 20 casualties between them.

Ah hillmen the Parthian generals best friend in a siege. Good on walls, fast as all hell. Can take it to chariots no problem. The only thing they can't do is pass a brothel, horny bastards .

[MoROmeTe]

Sorry, I'm now oficially awake after just 4 hours of sleep and I may be plain stupid. Hillmen are phalanx? What I've said is that I like to use my hoplites to defend in the streets rather than on the walls. Of course other infantry might perform rather well on the walls.
As for going up against Spartan hoplites in a siege, I have not done it. I usually have the Spartans under my command. however, I would think that the enemy could put ladders or towers on multilple sections of the wall and attack the Spartans from many a points. Maybe if the number of Spartan units matches the number of enemy assault points the Spartans might be well of. I would have to try this.

[Fridge]

While it might not be the best place for them, I find my militia hoplites can usually hold a wall against whatever's thrown at them. Not tried it against the good post-Marian Romans, but then, by then I'd hope to be using silver shields...

They don't get the advantage of long pointy sticks, but their defence stat doesn't go down at all, does it?

[th3freakie]

Thanks for all the help eveyone

btw - no spartans, best I can put out in this campaign is really Sacred Band.

[Slaists]

if the phalanx formation in RTW is basically what "support ranks" were in MTW, then your miltia hoplites on walls are deprived of a defense bonus as well (support ranks used to mean: extra defense, less diret attack and extra attack from support ranks).

note, also, that due to the secondary weapon bug, hoplites, when not using their pikes in the animation, are still using pike attack stats rather than the sword attack stats :(

[Fridge]

if the phalanx formation in RTW is basically what "support ranks" were in MTW, then your miltia hoplites on walls are deprived of a defense bonus as well (support ranks used to mean: extra defense, less diret attack and extra attack from support ranks).

I'm not sure there are any rank bonuses (bonii?) in R:TW - but that's only from what I've read on this and other boards. I think the 3D engine is supposed to take care of that sort of thing on its own, and probably does up to a point, though not being a veteran of Shogun or Medievil, I can't really tell. Your opponent certainly isn't going to get any rank effects either if they're attacking you on the wall.

note, also, that due to the secondary weapon bug, hoplites when not using their pikes in the animation are still using pike attack stats rather than the sword attack stats :(

Hadn't even thought of that - only really considered the effect on missile troops. I suppose that makes phalanx troops even more powerful -are they getting exactly the same stats when they're out of phalanx formation then? You'd be swapping the length of spears (admittedly, a big plus) for vastly increased maneuverability, making them shit hot legionnaries with the advantage of being able to form a phalanx, instead of phalanx troops who turn into weak infantry if their formation is broken... No wonder I've been loving my phalanxes...

[hoof]

As is always the case, it depends.

If you know the enemy is attacking a wall section with ladders, defending that section with a phalanx unit vs letting them up to the wall unmolested is a no-brainer. I've had Militia Hoplites hold back Hastati and worse simply because the soldiers would come over the wall surrounded by angry men. You can always order them down the stairs in the event the ladder attack falters and form them up into a regular phalanx.

Against siege towers you can still use Phalanx type troops. However, if the AI is coming up with a good melee unit, try to have two defending units to fight them. Position them to either side of the tower's drop point. This way they can attack from both sides. Yes, you can get the same effect with a single unit centered on the drop point, however, this way you have 2x the men, and one unit breaking won't lose the fight for you right away (since the attackers still have an unbroken enemy on the side not fighting a unit committed to "fight to the death"). Even if you lose that fight, it might take the attackers so long to secure the wall-top that they might have insufficient time to take the city if you're playing with a timer.

Phalanx toops aren't as good as some others in defence, but can be very useful in many circumstances. If the enemy is unable to secure the wall-tops, they aren't getting in without heavy casualties. Either they end up being drenched by the machine-gun ... er ... burning oil, or they must knock a section of wall down, meaning arrow towers and waiting defenders will make life miserable.

However, if the enemy is able to secure the wall-tops, it's relatively east to secure a gate and capture a few arrow towers. Now the enemy can march in unmolested by the wall defences, and have some arrow towers of their own to help against gate-area defenders.

But it all depends. Phalanx units make good artificial walls too, so sometimes you can get fewer casualties by simply letting the enemy in and setting up your units in the streets. Fortunately, the AI doesn't have as much luck in using missile units to counter this threat, or charging cavalry down undefended streets to hit your spear-carriers from the rear.

[hoof]

With regards to the 2ndary weapon bug, if Phalanx units are using spear stats when equipped with swords, they actually may be at a *disadvantage*. Spears (at least in RTW from what I've seen) aren't as efficient at killing as swords (they instead rely upon mass and the enemy "impaling" themselves, as well as keeping the enemy beyond his weapon range). Thus, when the bug is fixed, Phalanx swordfighting might actually get a boost.

[Slaists]

Medievil, I can't really tell. Your opponent certainly isn't going to get any rank effects either if they're attacking you on the wall.

well, if the opponent is using sword infantry to attack the walls, those wouldn't get any rank bonuses on the plain field either. rand bonuses would apply only to spear units in orderly formation.

[Nelson]

Phalanx - are they usefull in defending a sieged city?

I can easely see how to use them in wood walls, and in the gates of a stone one (ho... the beutifull boiling oil) but what about on the walls themselfs, agaist towers and ladders? Will the pikes turn to the side, or will they just point forward to the air?

When I have sent Seleucid militia hoplites unto a wall, their pikes became short spears of the sort triarii and eastern infantry use.

[Arrowhead]

*shudder* The thought of trying to get Spartans off a wall is scary.

It's easy! Foresters, cretens, chosen archers, archer aux...