Too many phalanx units?

[bones58]

over 9 factions have at least one phalanx unit too much i think.

[Wishazu]

yeah but ost of em are former possesions of alexander the great. most of the eastern ones anyway, didnt he start reforms in their armies to train em like a macedonian army???? any historical experts?? i will say that spearwarband phalanx unit probs shouldnt be there

[Kraxis]

At best (or most negatively if you want) the Germans and the Carthies shoul perhaps not have the phalanx, but that is up to the individual. Personallly I prefer both of them having it.
The Carthies seems to have used it a number of times and the Germans (the Helvetii) used it too. The Germans in genereal might no have used it, but we simply don't know.

[lars573]

Let's do a little review here.

Number of purely greek factions in the game
Greek cities
Macedon
Seleucids
total 3

Number of might as well be greek factions
Thrace
Pontus
Egypt
total 3

Number of factions that are not greek but have a phalanx unit
Armenia
Germans
Carthage
total 3

Viewed like this the only factions that it might be pushing it for them to have a unit with phalanx ability are the bottom three on my list. Also you should not that CA only put in one blanket form of phalanx. There were at least 2 greek styles. The traditional southern greek phalanx and the Macedonian phalanx that Philip developed for his sarisafors to use with their long spears and small shields. Plus you have the shiled wall which is probably what the Helvetii were using anyway.

[Red Harvest]

The Carthaginians used phalanx at least when Xanthippus (Spartan merc) trained and lead their army to victory at the Battle of Tunis in the 1st Punic War in 255 BC. They had Greek style equipment, even before he arrived, so it is believed they were in phalanx for the defeats before that. As best I can tell, it is believed that the Carthagian african raised heavy infantry were fighting in phalanx early in the 2nd Punic War. After Lake Trasimene in 217 BC (and Trebia before it), Hannibal had captured enough gear to reequip his infantry and supposedly did so. Just thinking out loud: I have to admit that this latter part seems a bit odd. One would expect his Spanish troops and his own Africans to have better swords since the Spanish steel was better than what the Romans had. The armour, shields, and helmets of the Romans would probably have been good and of uniform style. His losses of African vets. at Cannae were fairly light, but they were the flankers and didn't bear the brunt of the fight.

The Germans as phalanx is probably a bit of a stretch, although Caesar I think described something like this. It is probably a bit too resisilient in the game being such a large unit, a base level unit, and fairly long "spear" style. If you want to mod it, you might try reducing the base unit size somewhat (and cost/upkeep), and changing the attribute below stat_pri to "short_pike" instead of "spear." This will shorten the spear length a bit and take a bit of their punch away.

There seem to be 3 styles of phalanx possible in the game:
1. Macedonian style = "long_pike" This is the sarissa based unit with smaller shield. It is deadly in the game.
2. Iphicratid hoplite style = "spear" This is an intermediate length spear that all the other phalanx types other than pike phalangites use in RTW.
3. Classical hoplite style = "short_pike" This is not used by any units at the moment, although it can be modded in. It is shorter, about the length of a traditional hoplite spear. I've only experimented with it a little.

[Ziu]

Though for playability leaving the Germans with their phalanges is best. They make up for the horrible financial position.

[derF]

I think that the ability to "Phalanx" is given away too easily. It needs hard training and discipline to make a spear group confidently form a phalanx.

Ideally speaking, the Germans phalanx should be much messier and less effective than the Greek one.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Going back to the list someone produced of phalanxey nations - weren't Pontus, Armenia and Egypt (Ptolemad) also ex-greek factions, and so, if anything should have MORE of a greek basis? (excuse me if i'm wrong - i'm taking this off my shaky recollection of something i read...).

[Kraxis]

Going back to the list someone produced of phalanxey nations - weren't Pontus, Armenia and Egypt (Ptolemad) also ex-greek factions, and so, if anything should have MORE of a greek basis? (excuse me if i'm wrong - i'm taking this off my shaky recollection of something i read...).

Pontus and Egypt are in the 'Might as well be Greek' group.
Armenia was not Greek, but they adopted a few things from the passing Greek armies, like levy pikemen. I think it is even mentioned that they had sometyhing that is similar to the Heavy Spearmen unit. But Armenia was not Greek.

[The_Emperor]

Of course we are going to have many Phalanx units. This was the era of the Phalanx, the "Military standard" of the time. Thanks to Alexander's legacy the eastern factions certainly all had it (with the exception of Parthia of course) and everyone else was impressed by it.

As has already been said Carthage also adopted Greek-Style training and tactics during the first Punic War. It certainly points to the formation being very effective and growing in popularity at the time.

The Germans are the only Phalanx that is unconnected to the advancement of Greek culture and tactics... I suspect the use of the word was more of a general one on the part of Caesar because most Romans would have been well aware of what a Phalanx was, and if Caesar was trying to create the impression of a "Phalanx-like formation" for readers back home he would have succeeded.

[Watchman]

Military techniques proven effective tend to spread pretty quickly, especially if they fit into the socioeconomic setups of their recipients. Before the Macedonian phalanx the Greco-Mesopotamian hoplite phalanx had been "the thing" and was used by just about every group that fancied itself as "civilised" around the Med (and more to the point had the sort of agricultural society it was suited for).

Well, the Macedonian pike phalanx trounced it soundly, and duly became the norm. The Romans went straight from hoplites to maniples and didn't bother with pikes along the way, but they were pretty much the lone exception - and their javelin-toting swordsmen did have some issues with the pike-hedges.

The German "phalanx" in the game is probably stretching it a bit. I'm quite willing to accept the Teutonic spearmen could have fought in the sort of close, spear-armed shieldwall that would remain the norm well until Middle Ages, but if that one rates as phalanx then the Triarii should too... Well, write it down to artistic license and some creative interpretation of Caesar.

Compare the popularity of the phalanx - of either form - in the Antiquity to the way pikes became all the rage during Late Middle Ages and the Renaissance following the Swiss example, or the spread of firearms anywhere once introduced. Imitation, as they say, is the most honest form of praise.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yeah, but the romans did trounce the phalanxes, because of flexibility and the ability of "officers" (centurions) to make decisions to change the disposition of their tyroops during battle. Plus the Legionarry was better able to deal with missile fire and flanking attacks, and due to thew short range of the gladius there was no fighting past the 3-5th row and slaughtering the pikemen.