Units that aren't too useful....

[RollingWave]

I'm just starting my first campaign... but so far i can't see the point of the following units... can someone enlighten me?

1.gladiator: a half sized infantry that takes 2 turn.... it dies like flies vs any calvary charge... and isn't increidablly great vs much else (it's bonus vs animal... does it work vs horse or just elephant/dog/pig???) why get these guys? a normal infantry tend to work much better...

2.war pig: errr dogs are much better and lower tech.....? why get pig?

3.ballista: while not as horrid as MTW ... still not much better either...

4.The dudes that can hide anywhere (i'm using a chinese version so not too sure bout particular unit names) i never quiete figure out how to use these type of guys in all the TW series... they can hide sure but they get revealed when u get close anyway... not like they can charge fast or anything...

So can ppl enlighten me on the usese of these guys?

[jerby]

right about teh gladiators, i see you're playing brutii.
gladiators are indeed useless and were never used in an army i believe, except of course spartacus.
pigs are used against elephants, its scare the living jesus out of them
ballsita's are just a step up to onagers, they are indeed not great, but the only thing you have in teh beginning.
the dudes that can hide anywhere, probably those ninja dudes. can be used in your centre as melee or used for trapping when you are playing defense

[The_Mark]

1. Gladiators, well, I don't use them, but when I attacked gladiator-rebelled Palma I figured out what they do the best. They hold walls. 2 glad units decimated 2 2-chevron hastatis and caused some casualties to the 3rd hastati unit which eventually overran them.

2. They scare elephants. They REALLY scare elephants. I remember once in MP my Seleucid enemy had 5-6 armored eles eady to fall upon my lines. Well, pigs forward, apply match.... 5-6 amok elephants scattering their pike formations..

3. Dunno. I don't use 'em.

4. The Arcani. They are quite good fighters, though as glads, understrenght. Have them hiding a little distance in front of your lines on sides. When enemy engages, throw them to their back. Quick rout, hopefully.

[Daevyll]

Try and use Arcani to assault a wall, where the numerical inferiority isnt too big a deal. Same thing (though less effective) with gladiators.

[Slaists]

Why would arcani, gladiators be better at assaulting/defending walls than, let's say, principes or later - legionaries?

[Productivity]

Why would arcani, gladiators be better at assaulting/defending walls than, let's say, principes or later - legionaries?

Presumably because they are better fighters, but in standard ground combat get overwhelmed by sheer nubmers and get surrounded, where as on walls, only a few can come at you at a time.

[Somebody Else]

Gladiators and Arcani do well on walls, either assaulting or defending. Arcani have another use in sieges as well - at the beginning of deployment, as the defenders, stick them outside the wall - and when the enemy has commited its troops to assaulting the walls - the arcani can pop up and do some damage in the rear.

[Blitz]

but if i am not wrong if the enemy army get too close to your arcani they will be seen, so it is not an easy thing to do especially against a lot of enemy.

[sunsmountain]

One would have to perform tests with arcani and gladiators, to see whether they lose men at a lower rate compared to normal legionares.

But as i remember from the MTW engine, loss to arrows is probably a percentage of total unit size. Sure arcani may lose less men going towards the wall, but legionares can use testudo (bugged senseless, but ok), losing close to none.

The biggest plus for these small units is their hitpoints. Supposedly that would help versus arrow, but im unsure about their best role. I use them as flankers.
At least they're very maneuverable and can fill gaps like nothing else can.

[The Stranger]

the chinese version sucks

[Oaty]

Gladiators and arcani are secondary troops, Think of them as slow cavalry. Cavalry does'nt recieve charges well and neither do they. Let your hastati's/princepes/cohorts or your sacrificial auxillaries take the charge and then bring in your gladiators either through a gap you have in the line or around on the flanks.

[ChaosLord]

Well, a note on Gladiator effectiveness in cramped spaces that might apply to Arcani as well(can't remember), they get 2hp rather then the 1hp of most infantry units. So while they might be undersized they're twice as hard to kill as a normal unit. Which is why they're useful in siege battles on walls or in streets. As garrison troops I think they'd be too costly, but bringing some along to take walls in heavily defended towns would probably be a good use.

[Ziu]

the chinese version sucks

Really? Been playing it have we?

[Khorak]

Gladiators are supposed to be a hard hitting unit with loads of stamina. But their stamina seems to run out really quick....I assume it's that hardiness bug or whatever that makes hardy units get knackered even quicker than normal.

They should be useful for, as said, wall defence (because they hit like freight trains until uber post-Marius units and don't get knackered, so can keep on fighting effectively), and for fast reactionary infantry on a battlefield. They can run anywhere you want them to and still be able to lay the hurt down. On a siege attack, they can be good breach stormers, hard hitters who can get in there, really tear the place up and last long enough for others to arrive.

They have fairly limited uses, but gladiators aren't utterly worthless. Well, I suppose the Velites ones are stinky....

I vote for incendiary pigs.

[Kraxis]

The Velites Gladiators? I vote them as being possibly the best. They are the lowest tech gladiators and they are as tough as the Mirmillos (highest tech).

I tried the Arcani for fun when my campaign was rolling... In fieldbattles they never did do as well as I had hoped. But then came a siege... Damn! One unit that was depleted a bit (from a field battle) racked up no less than 400 kills (on huge granted) but lost only one guy, and this was in serious fighting. Those streets were covered with enemies where they had faced that unit, the other unit never managed to get into much fighting because of the first one.
But of course I had to try and take hte square with them. Bad idea as some cavalry routed them, lost half the unit to them.

[Productivity]

I was playing a multiplayer battle against a friend, and used both arcani and mirmillo gladiators...

A strong central bunker, legionaries and archers, with auxilia up the front to take anything really nasty...

Out wide have two repeating ballistas on either side, guarded by cavalry and arcani.

In the gaps between these groups, have gladiators. My plan was to use the repeating ballistas to scare him into commiting his better units (because he didn't want them getting shot up) into the central bunker area, which should have been able to beat them. The gladiators act to stop the spilling around of the enemy, and anything that trys to march wide gets hit by the ballista.

Anyway, the plan worked. The ballistas scared him enough into marching all of his better units right down the middle, which ended up in a huge brawl, not much finesse there. But the gladiators did a great job of picking off anyone who looked like lapping around the sides of this combat.

The arcani were useful, because he sent some units to deal with each of the ballista groups, and when they got there they found themselves with far more units than they expected to deal with, and lost both fights, which allowed me to swing my cavalry round from the side, and hit him in the rear of the brawl.

Anyway, the arcani's ability to hide meant that my oponent commited understrength squads.

I'm not sure if other units would have worked as well as the gladiators, but they seemed to do very well as a skirmish unit to take out anythign that threatened to flank.

[Es Arkajae]

When I bother to build gladiators or get given them by the Senate I use them to take walls.

The main benefits have already been pointed out, namely their toughness, but an additional benefit is actually their small unit size, thanks to that it takes much less time for them to get up the siege tower and deploy and whats more be able to move as a whole unit since the whole unit can pop onto the wall almost at once.

It also means less time to get down from the walls and into the streets below. for that reason they're great for seizing the gate houses and then deploying into the street below to clear the way for the main body of your troops to enter through the front gate.

So a tough body of troops in a small package.

And to be honest as they're gladiators I don't feel so bad about them dying as I do my normal troops, good Romans all

[Siris]

Gladiators and Arcani do well on walls, either assaulting or defending. Arcani have another use in sieges as well - at the beginning of deployment, as the defenders, stick them outside the wall - and when the enemy has commited its troops to assaulting the walls - the arcani can pop up and do some damage in the rear.

But how do you put them outside of the wall in deploment! It wont ever allow me to do such a thing, I have to send them out the gate which they'll be in full sight as would any other troop...

Mainly because I've wanted to do a thing like in the movie Troy, the huge battle where 50,000 greeks stormed Troy, but the Trojans had archers on the walls, and 10-20,000 soliders in the front, so the archers couldnt be attacked, nor the gates battered, so while they hold off & fight the enemy army, the archerse continue to fire without harm! I've wanted to do this tactic badley, but cannot since I cant put my men outside the walls before they enemies march in... since you stated above that you can put the outside of the walls before the battle... how so?

[Somebody Else]

Siris - you may notice that the red line denoting the limit of your troop placement is a little way outside of the walls - just enough to fit a small unit spread wide in. Double line maximum for stone walls (I think) and four deep for wooden walls. Quite useful when sallying on wooden walls, using phalanxes or whatever - set up the entire line before the battle, as in a field engagement, and go forth. Cavalry and such can't normally fit outside, nor siege units.

[RollingWave]

Yes the Chinese version is pretty poor (poor translation on top of other problems... i could translate better than they did) but there's no other option... other than buying one over the net ofcourse... but since a. i don't have a credit card and b. i'm way pass the age to ask for things like this from my parents so i have to settle with the chinese version.

I see ... thx for the input guys. btw... wardogs seem to be a tad bit overeffective IMHO... just try to start one massive brawl then launch the dogs... almost no way u could lose unless ur horriblly outstrengthed. the dogs are super strong if the enemy isn't fighting them head on with a phalanx or strong calvary or something... a tad bit imbal maybe??? oh well i suppose the 2 turn training kinda makes that up.

[Siris]

I have tried that though, & it wouldnt let me!



I will try it out this weekend though.

[Kraxis]

Hadn't thought about gladiators as flankprotection... Nice one there.
But wouldn't they become overpowered if you have less troops in the center? I mean then the gladiators would have to fight full enemy units head on, or close to that. At least one could then hope they would stand up to the enemy until the center won, but without the gladiators protection the center might individually be flanked.

Nice little pull with the Arcani, what kind of units did he send? Not cavalry I take it?

[HarunTaiwan]

About the Chinese version, I have not seen it yet.

Are the menus, etc. all in Chinese or just the rule book?

[RollingWave]

Everything is in chinese except the voice. :/

[Productivity]

Hadn't thought about gladiators as flankprotection... Nice one there.
But wouldn't they become overpowered if you have less troops in the center? I mean then the gladiators would have to fight full enemy units head on, or close to that. At least one could then hope they would stand up to the enemy until the center won, but without the gladiators protection the center might individually be flanked.

Nice little pull with the Arcani, what kind of units did he send? Not cavalry I take it?

The gladiators weren't true flank protection, if anything serious had been sent at them they would have been in trouble, they were simply there to skirmish the flanks of the brawl in the middle, allowing my (numberically outnumbered) line to hold and not be lapped around. Remember that he wasn't going to send a full unit out wide to get into a fight with the gladiators, because they would have got chewed by the ballistas.

The idea was that thecentre would hold, until I could get the cavalry (guarding the ballistas) in to hit them in the back. I needed to put the cavalry out wide, because if I had left the ballistas apparently undefended, it would have been pretty obvious something was up there.

He sent light cavalry and town militia against the ballistas. His plan was that my cavalry would be forced to commit to attacking one of them, and the other would have a free run at the ballistas. As it was my cavalry mauled his cavalry, and the arcani chewed the militia.

The line was something like this


^_@_______________________@_^
__**_______g_LLLLL_g_______**__
______________aa_______________

Where ^ are legionary cavalry, @ are arcani, g are gladiators, L are legions (two early, two normal and one urban) and a are archers.

[Casmin]

[QUOTE=jerby
gladiators are indeed useless and were never used in an army i believe, except of course spartacus.
[/QUOTE]

Marcus Aurelius was supposed to have conscripted gladiators into the army after the Marcomanni burst across the frontier. Although my knowledge is limited in this particular topic I would assume that since they were conscripted into the legions they would have been equipped as legionaries and not like RTW.

If I'm not mistaken there was a non-Spartacus example during the Republic but I'm not sure. I'd rather not stray you off track with an innaccuracy.

[RollingWave]

Well trying it a bit more... gladiators and arcani are not too bad if dragged on fights.... they have higher HP and huge defense/offense capabiltiy... but non of that help vs a calvary charge and they can't take losses....