Which Empire...

**Stefan the Berserker** · 01-26-2005, 22:05

Which of these Empires had deserved most, with hypotetical Reforms that make them modern States, to survive until today? The Collection had been destroyed or failed in the last two Centuries...

#1 Ottoman Empire

The Ottomans reformed their State earlyer and it somehow similar to Britains Monarchy, but Islamic.

#2 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

Monarchy reformed like in Britain, restricted by Laws. The Memberstates are Reformed too to reflect Ethnicity and the State is now composed of a federal system like the USA.

#3 Grandgerman Empire

Emperor Wilhelm I wished to conquer Bohemia and Austria aswell, but Bismarck convinced him to to do not do so and allow Austria to survive for the next fifty years...

#4 Napoleon's Empire

The French Republic of 'today' covers the dark Blue Regions, the light Blue ones are Protectorates.

#5 British Empire

Selfexplaining...

#6 Japanese Empire

Japanese Victory in the Pacific War, afterwards their policies turn moderate.

#7 Polish Empire

Poland-Lithuania survived as a Grandpower until today.

#8 Imperial Russia

No Sowjets, Multi-Cultural Tzar State reformed...

**Rosacrux redux** · 01-27-2005, 12:17

Greek (Alexander's) Empire?

Roman Empire?

Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire?

Spanish colonial Empire?

Portuguese colonial Empire?

Chinese Empire (choose any period but the Ming)?

...and there are many others, as well.

Of all the empires ever, I think the most beneficial to humanity and progres (in the long run, because empire-building is fairly destructive and inhuman in a short run) are:

The short-lived empire of Alexander*
It is the first example of an empire that began by administering cultural fusion, with handpicked elements of all cultures involved, and an empire that spread the Greek culture, science and fine arts to a huge area, paving the road for the Romans to actually "inherit" the largest part of it.

The Roman Empire
The impact of the Roman empire cannot be really measured - it's too huge for conventional measuring.

The British Empire
Almost equally influental to the Roman Empire in every aspect, is the one that shaped the world we live today in.

As for your question, I think none of these empires could (or should) have survived to our days. The days of multinational states (in the central-administrative, central-government sence - the EU is an example of completely decentralized, without a central gov. or administration, neo-empire on the build, but it is not a single political entity yet) are long over, the 20th century belonged to the nation states and only EU is trying to reanimate the multi-national states in the 21st.

Of these you posted, the Grossdeutschland is the most homogenous, so it would've more chances to survive the creation of nation-states. The rest are extremely heterogenous and wouldn't stand a chance.

*alright, alright, I am biased towards that one... so, what? Sue me!

**Stefan the Berserker** · 01-27-2005, 17:35

The British Empire
Almost equally influental to the Roman Empire in every aspect, is the one that shaped the world we live today in.

**Rosacrux redux** · 01-27-2005, 18:26

If you could elaborate on what you didn't get, I think it will be easier for me to adress your questionmark, nicht so?

**cegorach** · 01-28-2005, 12:06

Which of these Empires had deserved most, with hypotetical Reforms that make them modern States, to survive until today? The Collection had been destroyed or failed in the last two Centuries...

#1 Ottoman Empire

>>>> Lack of progress, too many balcan nations eager to regain independence or lost territories.

#2 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

Monarchy reformed like in Britain, restricted by Laws. The Memberstates are Reformed too to reflect Ethnicity and the State is now composed of a federal system like the USA.

>>>>>>> It would be hard to survive, especially because some nationalites had their own states just on the other side of the austrian border. Austrian empire required stability which was hard to save. For example it had to stay neutral and not to involve itself in wars, which was hard to achieve alone.

#3 Grandgerman Empire

Emperor Wilhelm I wished to conquer Bohemia and Austria aswell, but Bismarck convinced him to to do not do so and allow Austria to survive for the next fifty years...

>>>>> Possible, however in my opinion this empire could only take Austria + Bohemia and not much more, otherwise it would became much more likely to implose sooner or later.

#4 Napoleon's Empire

The French Republic of 'today' covers the dark Blue Regions, the light Blue ones are Protectorates.

>>>>>Only if Prussia, Austria and Russia were undermined with re-created Poland and Hungary. It couldn't survive with so many protectorates and enemies.

#5 British Empire

>>>>>> I think it was possible if no 2nd WW was fought.

#6 Japanese Empire

Japanese Victory in the Pacific War, afterwards their policies turn moderate.

>>>>> Like in P.Dick's novel ? I believe it was possible...

#7 Polish Empire

Poland-Lithuania survived as a Grandpower until today.

>>>>>>> The state had everything to survive till now and would survive untill today if:

1. The state was able to survive the period between 1792 and 1797-99 (the rise of Napoleon) we would see the Commonwealth even today - it was decentralised and reformed to achieve this with no doubt.

2. OR
If the ukrainian part was granted with equal rights in the early XVIIth century I think the state would dominated eastern europe until now -
most likely with Hungary, Romania as well as Prussia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belorussia, Ukraine and Crimea inside its borders.
Its political system allowed something like this - with catholic, protestant, orthodox, muslim and jewish population enjoying equal rights, decentralised administration, autonomous and self-governing regions. Actually it isn't difficult to imagine Poland replacing Russia in european balance of power, but in much peaceful manner.

#8 Imperial Russia

No Sowjets, Multi-Cultural Tzar State reformed...

>>>>>> After Stolypin reforms..
Yes it was possible, but we'd see much more terrorists in Europe, especially polish ( polish IRA, but much larger and more powerful - bigger population).

Maybe we could think of alternative history of the world with one of these empires surviving untill now ? What do you think ?
I believe I could post something like this, if I know enough ( so probably Polish Empire, Grand Russia or similar).

My regards Cegorach/Hetman

**MoROmeTe** · 01-28-2005, 17:21

1) The Ottomans could not have made it. One reason was the fact the the Balkans were to hard to control. Another is the fact that there was a lot of infighting between individuals for power and that the Ottoman Empire was so descentralized that it could be easily fractured in two or more entities.

2) The Austro Hungarian Empire is a freak o f history. The fact that it had so many nationalities in its borders means that it could not survive. there's no amount of reform that can make Hungarians and Romanians in Transilvania leave side by side in a an empire neither of them controlled.

3) The Grandgerman Empire would have probably had to germanize the other nationalities between its borders but other than that, with reforms that made the state more centralised and with less political infighting, it probably would have been able to make it to modern times.

4) Napoleaon's Empire... was too damn big, had to many places where it was weak. Couldn't have made it.

5) The Brits could have kept their empire, if it wasn't for their lack of will to do so and for the nation/liberty for the people trend they started. They took away their own empire, really.

6) The Japanese empire had no future because Japan didn't have the power to hold it toghether for long periods of time. It was rather conquered and ocuupid teritory than an empire.

7) Polish Lithuanian Empire. Don't know enough about them, but from what I can gather they had the makings for a great empire. Keeping greater Poland, going into Russia and into ukraine and "polonizing" the people they found their, trying to promote the Catholic faith but allowing for religious freedom, they would have had land and resources. Maybe ading Moldavia and Transilvania and even Valahia would have been possible in time. With reforms and without any major catastrphies, The Polish Lithuanian Empire could have survived. And probably this is the one that deserved too.

What do you think of a Thracian/Dacian Empire, streching from the Black Sea to the North of Italy, pushing into Greece and maybe into southern Poland and Austria?