Albania

[Meneldil]

I've read sometimes that their was a region called Albania in Asia Minor. Where exactly was it situated ? Does it have any link with later albania or albanians ?

[nokhor]

that albania was in the caucauses i believe. kinda in between modern day turkey and iran. i don't know the connection between the 2 peoples though.

[Byzantine Prince]

The name between the two is actually just a coincidence. There was one place called Albania in Azerbaijan but it has no relation the the country today called by everyone Albania. I say by everyone except the people who live there, lol. The actual name for the country Albania is Shqiperia, or land of the eagle. There used to be a tribe called Alban in the north though so everyone calls the whole country Albania. Don't beleave that there is a connection between the two. There isn't.

[Rosacrux redux]

This is one of those funny little mysteries of history and one that has not been adequately answered by any historian up to this point. Most knowledgeable historians admit that they cannot come up with an explaination that covers all parameters.

There are two main theories as to where from the name "Albania" comes from. The one is Balkan-specific: the ancient tribe of "Albanoi", mentioned for the first time in the 2nd century AD by a Greek geographer. It was apparently an Illyrian tribe, and a mountainous one too. No close connections with the romanized Illyrians that provided a few emperors to Rome (Diocletianus, Aurelius, Constantine), other than they both would be categorized under the collective "Illyricum" (or "Illyrikon") tribes.

The second theory is the "Roman" theory. Alba means "white" in Latin and many believe that the land - or the people - was named by the Romans that way at some point. But ...which one? The one in the Balkans or the one in Asia? And even that, leaves us with the question about the Tribe "Albanoi" or "Arvoi" or "Arvanoi", the Greek geographers in the 2nd AD century spoke about. I have heard about a reference in Strabo as well, but been unable to actually find it and see for myself. Sure there might be a coincidence, but that would be a quite interesting one...

The question of the ethnogenesis of the modern Albanians is very interesting as well, and one that poses difficulties.

Part of those difficulties is that there is not a single mentioning of an "Albanian" or even "Illyrian" nation (other than "Illyrian tribes") before the 15th century AD. Even the great hero of the modern Albanians, Georgios Kastriotis, which excelled in the times of the Ottoman invasion in the Balkans, was according to most sources Greek/Illyrian and not "Albanian". Also, the Albanian tongue, in a rather ancient form, first makes it's appearance in the same era (15th century).

Furthermore, there seem to be a host or mercenaries brought by the Turks into the Balkans and settled there, and specifically in the lands of modern Albania, and they were later used to supress the locals and provide manpower for the Ottomans. Those settlers came from - surprise! - the region of eastern Asia Minor called "Albania".

But it would be quite innacurate to state that those people are the sole forefathers of the Albanian nation, although they did definitely contribute to it. According to most sources, besides the native Illyrian populations, part of the Albanian ethnos are also these settlers and of course Thracian - Dacian and Moesian, mostly - elements.

So, there seems to be a connection after all, and the old philosophical riddle - what came first, the egg or the chicken - seems present here as well.

[Meneldil]

Where was the middle-eastern albania exactly ? Maybe you might provide me a map or two, so I can understand better ;-)

[Byzantine Prince]

The fictional middle eastern Albania is located in Azerbaijan. What's wrong? Couldn't you read my preveous post? If so do you have anything against what i said?

This aside I don't think Redux knows enough about Albania to be of any help to you. Albanians don't even call themselves Albanian's. 50 years from now they wouldn't even know what that was referign to. Today they know because everyone calls them that. So there can be no possible connection of the two. Not onyl would they speak dfferent languages but also have different cultures and even skin and haircolor. All Albanians(the country) are completely white and good chunk are blonde with blue eyes. If you go to Azerbaijan, well let's just say you won't see any blond people. So there I've proven my point. If anyone says: "Well you didn't provide a link or anything" Then all I have to do is ask: "So you're saying that Albanians aren't white?" Which is of course ludicrous seeing as I was born there.

Say it with me know Shqiperia with two dots over the 'e'.

[Gregoshi]

BP, once again I must remind you that your "debating" technique and posting ettiquette are lacking. Why does every point you disagree with have to start off with a less than flattering remark about the other person's knowledge? Please cease using these disparaging remarks and simply state your point.

Two points about the information in your post:

1) run an internet search on "Caucasian Albania". I found a large number of hits. In checking out a few of them, this "fictional" Albania in Azerbaijan seems quite real.

2) I think if you read Rosacrux's post a little more closely, he did not say that the current peoples of Shqiperia (with two dots over the 'e' - I liked that) were descended from the Azerbaijan Albanians. The way I read his thread he was only pointing out an interesting coincidence - that some mercenaries from the Azerbaijan Albania settled in what was later to be called "Albania".

BTW, interesting information Rosacrux. And thanks for the personal perspective BP. A search on "Shqiperia" does yield a ton of hits - alas, almost none in english. BTW, how does one pronounce "Shqiperia"? That may provide a clue why the rest of the world sticks with "Albania".

[Byzantine Prince]

Why do I need to repeat things to you people:

So there can be no possible connection of the two. Not only would they speak dfferent languages but also have different cultures and even skin and hair color.

There is not a single blonde person in Azerbaijan I don't think. There is no connection. The word Albania has never existed in the Albanian(Shqip) language. It means nothing. As for them giving them the name I find it extremely unlikely that the left nothing behind. It certainly wouldn't be enough to grant them the name.

Shqiperia actually means land of the eagle and it's citizens sons of the eagle. Shqipone(with a ~ on the 'n') means eagle.

PS. You pronounce it exactly like you see it.

[Gregoshi]

We understand you, but I don't think you are understanding anybody else. It kind of makes this discussion pointless, doesn't it?



You seem to be making an assumption that Rosacrux is saying the Caucasian Albanian mercenaries made a major cultural and genetic impact on Shqiperia. He did not. He only said that some mercanaries settled there. You are also assuming they didn't integrate into the local populace. No one made any statement as to what happened to these people. Only that they settle there. And by a funny coincidence they were from the "other" Albania. Period. Is that any clearer?

[Byzantine Prince]

Yes that's perfect. Thanks.

[Rosacrux redux]

GAH!

Thank you Gregoshi for clearing things up.

Here is a map of the easternmost part of Asia Minor - South Caucasus. The fictional Albania is on the right.



Darn, can't get the image to post... alright, here is the link, see for yourself.
Ancient Albania

[Ar7]

Where do you people get such maps from, makes me feel like a 5 year old with no experience with internet.

[Byzantine Prince]

I always found this website great for maps:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_s...s.html#mideast

[Byzantine Prince]

I always found this website great for maps:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_s...s.html#mideast

BTW, you could've helped me with the whole terrorist thing. People are really touchy on the subject. I never thought I would have to fight them all off.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

the dots are called umlauts ë thats alt(137)

[Gregoshi]

BP, that is a good website for maps. I have it bookmarked myself.

[Meneldil]

The fictional middle eastern Albania is located in Azerbaijan. What's wrong? Couldn't you read my preveous post? If so do you have anything against what i said?

Well, I guess you're the one who have some difficulties at reading my last post. I wanted a map because I wanted to know where 'exactly' was fictional Albania. You said 'there was one place called Albania in Azerbaijan', which isn't really a precise explanation.
So, yes, I've read your previous post, and no I don't have anything against what you said.
Thanks for the maps anyway.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Here is a map of the easternmost part of Asia Minor - South Caucasus. The fictional Albania is on the right.
Ancient Albania

Hey! To add to the confusion, there's an 'Iberia' on that map too

[The Wizard]

Yep... ancient Caucasia was a place of much confusion amongst Greeks and Romans, it seems...



~Wiz

[Rosacrux redux]

Hey! To add to the confusion, there's an 'Iberia' on that map too

Right... and if the map could stretch a bit to the west, you'd see a Gaul too (Galatia, the Greek name for Gaul actually).

[The Wizard]

And modern Georgia has the same name as the state in the US...



~Wiz

[ShadesPanther]

although it was named after King George

[The Wizard]

Well I like it... it harbors OutKast and more the Durrty South music



~Wiz

[Rosacrux redux]

you petty spammers, you

[Hurin_Rules]

Everyone sing:

Al-ba-ni-a
Al-ba-ni-a

You border on the Adriatic

Al-ba-ni-a
Al-ba-ni-a

And your chief export is wheat.


(Anyone ever watch Cheers? :)

[Mouzafphaerre]

-

(Anyone ever watch Cheers? :)

Sometimes. I used to like it better in my childhood though. Still enjoyable dependin on my mood.
-

[Byzantine Prince]

Albania's main export isn't weat. It's AK-47. I kid you not.

[Nowake]

Indeed; and un-licensed. The russians are quite annoyed.. but at least with this "superior" tech the albanians cover some holes from their postcommunist economy imposed by the same russians.

[Rosacrux redux]

Kalasnikov and weed. Main exporter to Greece and parts of Italy. And of lousy quality too, I tell you.

[Byzantine Prince]

The Kalash or the weed?

I didn't know there was weed in Greece. I never heard much about. I knew about harder drugs coming from Albania though.