Justification and Calls to Kill Americans

[PanzerJaeger]

We have rules against cursing, personel name calling, and threats against individuals on this board as they are considered offensive.

I want to let the Mods of this forum know that statements like this are just as offensive to some americans on this board.:

By Byzantine Prince..

Yes the US does deserve an attack. I think it would have been better if he had just attacked the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, and the CIA headquarters. That outta send a good message.

You are right though, the US does deserve terrorism

By Ar7

I believe they deserved the terrorist attacks that were made against them


I do not understand why we are not allowed to curse, but we are allowed to justify and call for terrorist attacks?

Its incomprehensible to me that someone saying " **** you man!" is more offensive than what has been quoted above.

Now i understand many of the mods and probably a majority of the members on this board are not american, and ive seen the resentment towards america over the months ive been here, but please try and think about if someone was saying these kinds of things against your own country.

I know i shouldnt be upset about some guys on a forum justifying 9/11, but we have seen over and over again how justification leads action. When people with an agenda start to say "oh it wasnt such a bad thing" or "they deserved it", people all over the world hear that.

My point is that real people died on 9/11. People with lives and families. Members of this board have family that died there. Justifying this murder and saying it needs to happen again is not only extremely offensive to some here, but it has real consequenses, especially via a forum that can be accessed all over the world.

[Templar Knight]

I agree with Panzer, that particular post was unacceptable

[Devastatin Dave]

It is perfectly fine for him to make these statements. If its against the United States or conservatives he is perfectly in the correct form for the backroom. Now if he were to say something like the democrats, liberals, or leftist were "hateful" he would be banned immediatly!!! Panzer, i thought you would know this by now...

BTW, why can I not even read the backroom!!! This is beyond ridiculous!!! I want to atleast read the anti-American and democratic hate-filled propaganda. I know that this is a very sad day for the left today, with the elections in Iraq and stuff, but can't you find it in your little "red" hearts to atleast let me read your BS in the backroom?

Remeber Panzer, there is no hypocricy in the moderation, remember, it has been soooooo well explained by the mods in the "if you're going to moderate" thread. What a joke!!!

Panzer, be careful, you'll get silenced as well.

[Devastatin Dave]

Oops, i said hate-filled propaganda, I meant happy, free loving, cute little puppy filled propaganda. Sorry about that...

[doc_bean]

Can't we keep backroom fights in the backroom ?

I'd say anyone has the right to express their opinion, that doesn't mean anyone else has to actually read it.

[A.Saturnus]

If this had been in the Backroom I´d know of it.

[PanzerJaeger]

This was in the monestary.

I just want to say that while i may be being thin-skinned here, i dont expect everyone to say nice things about america. I dont care if people say that americas foriegn policy is bad or even that america is bad. I wouldnt even mind if someone said americas foreign policy led to 9/11.

These posts crossed a line though, to me at least. They went beyond critical analysis and into the realm of justification for a horrible act.

I just want the mods to realize that those statements are just as offensive to some here as curse words or personal attacks, ect.

[IrishMike]

I find this very disturbing and quite unsetteling to think that some people actually believe that other nations deserve terrorism. No nation on earth, not even if their your sworn enemy, deserves terrorism or any violent activities like terrorism. The slaughter of innocents in a non war time situation is never, never warrented or deserved.

[Devastatin Dave]

I find this very disturbing and quite unsetteling to think that some people actually believe that other nations deserve terrorism. No nation on earth, not even if their your sworn enemy, deserves terrorism or any violent activities like terrorism. The slaughter of innocents in a non war time situation is never, never warrented or deserved.

I could introduce you to a few that believe that, just click on the "backroom" you'll find plenty of them in there.

[IrishMike]

Yes I know, I have seen this. As I said before I find it very disturbing, and I can not understand the reasons behind such thinking. After all we all are human beings, and are not all humans deserving of one anothers understanding, and compassion, no matter how different we are from another in times of peace.

[SwordsMaster]

Yes I know, I have seen this. As I said before I find it very disturbing, and I can not understand the reasons behind such thinking. After all we all are human beings, and are not all humans deserving of one anothers understanding, and compassion, no matter how different we are from another in times of peace.

That is hippie .

Seriously though. IIRC the conversation was about how the US "farmed" Bin Laden and how he turned back on them when they abandoned him. They did deserve it from that point of view. I´m not justifying the loss of lives and the actual massacre, but the call to attention. The reminder of that all actions have consequences even if you are the US.

Don´t take me wrong, if you are offended, you are in your right to be so, and then the post should be removed, I´m just trying to show how it actually could make sense without being offensive.

Besides, shouldn´t that kind of threads belong to the Backroom?

[IrishMike]

Didn't mean to sound hippy. Just saying all this terrorism crap is uncalled for in peace. Now in war its a different story, as I have been a fan of the theory of total war. Pray for peace, but be ruthless in war.

The US is always going to be the major target aslong as we are the major mover and shaker in the world. Just like if the British Empire was still around, they would be the major target of critisim. I would just like others to be a little more sensitive in putting their thoughts into words, no need to stab a already sore wound.

[Devastatin Dave]

I would just like others to be a little more sensitive in putting their thoughts into words, no need to stab a already sore wound.

I disagree, I prefer to know the true feelings of those who say such things. But at the same time, they should be as equaly punished as those that aren't anti-American, anti-capitalist, etc for such infractions. But, even if certain members of the mod and leftist members of this community don't recognize this blantant attacks, the same standards do not apply.

[Byzantine Prince]

I don't think anyone ever said that the killing of innocent people was justified. I specifically wrote that the targeting of leaders and the people who made these mistakes would not be such a huge backlash. Let's face it this administration has failed in every way possible and listening to them talk about their dicisions oozes with incompetence. I think most of the world has realized this.

Also Americans need to stop acting as if every muslim country is filled uneducated barbarians that they wouldn't mind killing off. Their lives matter as much as yours. IF you kill 100,000 of them you shouldn't expect no backlash in return. If you support an invasive and outright terrorist state such as Israel (that controls the 3rd most important site in Islam) then you shouldn't expect no backlash. People all over the world have suffered greatly because of America's medling ways. How about asking the UN or NATO once in a while. Would that be so bad.

Here's a little count of all the people that were needlessly killed:

Germany: 1 million civilian dead even after the surrender. Reason: Negligence
Korea: 4 million Koreans died in 3 years(1950-1953). Reason: NONE
Vietnam: 3 million Viets dead Reason: NONE
Iraq: 100,000 and counting mostly civilian population dead in 2 years.

Oh yeah and this is not to mention all the poor Indians you wiped off the face of the Earth.

[PanzerJaeger]

Your entire post was a justification for killing americans. In fact, you said we deserve another attack. You might not be able to comprehend it, but your hate filled words can and have translated into hatefilled actions abroad. People look for justification before they kill innocents because even they know its fundementally wrong, your kind of language gives murderers a moral highground.

I believe that if this kind of hate mongering is allowed, it will set a very bad precident. Sure no one cares if someone is talking about how good it was that evil empirialist americans were killed, but if thats ok whats to stop someone for justifying the killing of Christians or Jews...

[Devastatin Dave]

If this had been in the Backroom I´d know of it.

You would know it, but I doubt you would do anything about it.

[Devastatin Dave]

I don't think anyone ever said that the killing of innocent people was justified. I specifically wrote that the targeting of leaders and the people who made these mistakes would not be such a huge backlash. Let's face it this administration has failed in every way possible and listening to them talk about their dicisions oozes with incompetence. I think most of the world has realized this.

Also Americans need to stop acting as if every muslim country is filled uneducated barbarians that they wouldn't mind killing off. Their lives matter as much as yours. IF you kill 100,000 of them you shouldn't expect no backlash in return. If you support an invasive and outright terrorist state such as Israel (that controls the 3rd most important site in Islam) then you shouldn't expect no backlash. People all over the world have suffered greatly because of America's medling ways. How about asking the UN or NATO once in a while. Would that be so bad.

Here's a little count of all the people that were needlessly killed:

Germany: 1 million civilian dead even after the surrender. Reason: Negligence
Korea: 4 million Koreans died in 3 years(1950-1953). Reason: NONE
Vietnam: 3 million Viets dead Reason: NONE
Iraq: 100,000 and counting mostly civilian population dead in 2 years.

Oh yeah and this is not to mention all the poor Indians you wiped off the face of the Earth.

Keep your anti American hatred in the backroom where such behavior is allowed.

[JAG]

I would have to totally and utterly agree with PJ here, those kinds of posts and remarks are totally unacceptable. How inconsiderate and disgusting it is to state that innocent people - yes innocent people died in the terrorist attacks, they are guilty of nothing for just being American citizens - deserved to die for doing their job and that more innocent people should die in the future. It is also clearly going to make people in the org very upset - rightly - if it is allowed to go on. It is wrong to label any group with hurtful messages, Americans, Muslims, liberals or conservatives, surely the people responsible shouldn't be able to say it. They would not be able to say it in our real life societies, why should they be able to say it on a message board?

Attacking a group of people with a message which if directed at an individual themselves would get them warnings, surely shouldn't be allowed. If you can't state you want an individual to die just because they are American on this board, why should you be able to state the same in a broader American context? Baffles me.

[Redleg]

I would have to totally and utterly agree with PJ here, those kinds of posts and remarks are totally unacceptable. How inconsiderate and disgusting it is to state that innocent people - yes innocent people died in the terrorist attacks, they are guilty of nothing for just being American citizens - deserved to die for doing their job and that more innocent people should die in the future. It is also clearly going to make people in the org very upset - rightly - if it is allowed to go on. It is wrong to label any group with hurtful messages, Americans, Muslims, liberals or conservatives, surely the people responsible shouldn't be able to say it. They would not be able to say it in our real life societies, why should they be able to say it on a message board?

Attacking a group of people with a message which if directed at an individual themselves would get them warnings, surely shouldn't be allowed. If you can't state you want an individual to die just because they are American on this board, why should you be able to state the same in a broader American context? Baffles me.

Got to agree with Jag on this one - his logic is sound.

[Productivity]

"I do not understand why we are not allowed to curse, but we are allowed to justify and call for terrorist attacks? "

Sorry, but if you are going to say you can't do the above, then it has to run both ways. No more justifying attacks on Iraq, no more calling for invasions of other countries.

Both are a form of terrorism to civilians, one just has (somewhat) more legitimacey than the other.

[Duke John]

Was the US justified in dropping the Atom Bombs?
Bombs dropped on cities, and you asked wether it was justified. And then you have the guts to make this thread?

...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'm sorry but I cannot stand this anymore.
I have been on the forum for about ten months, give or take. I have made many posts, participated in many debates, and I always come back for more. However, there are times in which I consider leaving here for good, never to come back to this place again. And it's not because of flames, or bashings that I've received from people, hell, even moderators, but it's because of coments like the one's Panzer posted, comments that offend me so deeply I cannot express my utter hatred for anyone who would even thing of murmering them, much less posting them on an online forum for the world to see. These comments attack my country; the one thing on this world that I would sacrifice anything, including my life, for. And I come in here for a friendly discussion or debate, and then I see these. What am I to do? Do I say somthing? If I do, I might get in trouble, so what do I do? Maybe I'll just not come back here. That is what I think at times, yet my loyalty to this place is unwavering, so I, perhaps foolishly, always return for more. Yet now, it's gotten to a point at which I cannot take it anymore. I have said offensive things before, and I try not to anymore, sometimes I slip but I try, and the last time I purposly said somthing to offend someone was a long time ago; I've changed since then. Flame me all you want, I care not, but leave my country alone.
-Capo

[Gregoshi]

Since my actions "inspired" this particular topic, I'll make a few comments. But first, let me say that all actions taken on the thread in question were my decisions and are my responsibility alone. Second, to dispel a few comments made above, I am an American and a Republican, I was appalled by the events of 9/11 and I supported the war in Iraq. None of this trivia about me should matter, but apparently it does.

...especially via a forum that can be accessed all over the world.

Yes, there are people from all over the world who visit these forums. They have different cultural backgrounds, religions (or lack thereof), and ideologies. As a result, there are a lot of conflicting viewpoints on every topic under the sun. The only common bond we share is an interest in the Total War games - and we even have strong differences of opinion about that! To simplify the issue for sake of clarity, while some are offended by those justifying 3000 deaths in the 9/11 attacks, there are others equally outraged by the many civilian casualties inflicted by US forces in the Iraq war and any attempts to justify that war will be offensive to them. If we forbid posts justifying 9/11, then we should forbid posts justifying the Iraq war. I'll ask for no "but..." arguments about this example, the point of it is to illustrate differences in our points of view, not the details of the example.

The freedom of speech we Americans value so much is a double edged sword. It has an ugly side too (and "ugly" depends upon your perspective), but as long as it doesn't violate forum rules, it has to remain just "ugly" and not an infraction. Violating the forum rules in these instances is not so clear cut. Where does freedom of expression end and the "hateful" speech prohibition of the forum rules begin? Since 9/11, the US has been struggling with determining where the boundaries lie with issues such as the one we are discussing here. I used my best judgement in reading the thread and applying the forum rules. It was my judgement - period. Whether you see it as fortunate or unfortunate, that is what you get in the Monastery.

In contrast to the fuzzy, judgemental issue discussed above, the application of some forum rules can be crystal clear. Abuse is one that springs to mind in this particular instance. That they are a rules violation is quite apparent no matter which side of the issue you stand.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

If this had been in the Backroom I´d know of it.

But you would have ignored it.
Edit: Claps for Gregeroshi.
Edit againL Gregeroshi-san, I respect your viewpoint. Yet I have to disagree with you on the Iraq war thing. 9/11 was targeting civilians, the Iraq war wasn't. In war, Civilians die, it is somthing that cannot be prevented. However, civilains are almost never the intended target for slaughter. on 9/11, they were.

[Byzantine Prince]

9/11 was meant as an attack on America and its symbols. The two towers were a great tragedy because so many civilians died. Nobody, including me justified that. But there was also an attack on the pentagon, and also a missed one for the whitehouse. They were clearly not just attacking civilians.

9/11 was targeting civilians, the Iraq war wasn't. In war, civilians die, it is something that cannot be prevented. However, civilians are almost never the intended target for slaughter. On 9/11, they were.

This made me chuckle. In war especially since they started bombing raids civilians are the onyl casualties. How do you think the US army killed off 3,000,000 Viets and losing so few of their own troops? They bombed civilians.

And if you think that those people(in Iraq) were maybe in the way of the army to kill the terrorists then think again. Anyone in Iraq could easily become a terrorist. There's AKs and grenade launchers all over the place now. Anyone can a terrorist. You don't necessarily have to be fanatic, you just have to be angry enough.

[PanzerJaeger]

Was the US justified in dropping the Atom Bombs?
Bombs dropped on cities, and you asked wether it was justified. And then you have the guts to make this thread?

Yea i do, you dont seem to be able to comprehend the difference between posting an objective question about an event that happened 60 years ago, and calling for the deaths of thousands today.

The poster i mentioned said that the US deserves another attack today. He then goes on to mention targets he would like to see destroyed, and later in the post discusses the people he would enjoy seeing killed.

This goes beyond critical analysis. This is not a distant group of observers struggling with the moral implications of an action. There were plenty of ways to make his point without resorting to hate speech. No one who supports the iraq war has ever said that innocent iraqis deserve to be killed by terrorist attacks.

I did not mean for this post to be a criticism of Gregoshi's actions in the thread, and its not. I only wanted the mod community to be aware that justifying and calling for attacks against americans is deeply offensive to some .org members. More offensive than curse words or personal threats.

If this is the case, that we can call for attacks against a country, i hope the practice does not spread to other nations. I think there are many on this forum who would call for the deaths of isrealis, palastinians, muslums, jews, and christians, but do not because of a certain unspoken rule that makes that behaviour unacceptable.

That rule was tested today.. No one ever cares if the butt of an insult, or apparently hate speech, is america.. but what happens if people start advocating the killing of Jews and justifying their genocide-ridden past? Mabey that will get a closer look by the admin..

[Gregoshi]

Capo/BP, may I quote myself?

I'll ask for no "but..." arguments about this example, the point of it is to illustrate differences in our points of view, not the details of the example.

I wanted no "but..." replies to the example I used. It was simplified to illustrate my point. Capo says "yeah but..." and BP replies "yeah but..." and the thread gets derailed. This thread is not about 9/11 and/or the Iraq war directly, but rather how the forum rules and moderation should apply to the sensitive issues that surround topics like this...or something like that. Let's keep on topic please.

Edit: PJ, as promised in my email, I will review the thread again more closely. This wouldn't be the first time I missed something or overlooked its significance.

[Duke John]

Yea i do, you dont seem to be able to comprehend the difference between posting an objective question about an event that happened 60 years ago, and calling for the deaths of thousands today.

My point was:
60 years ago the US deemed it right to bomb cities full with civilians as means to fight a war. Today terrorists deem it right to bomb civilian targets (at a much smaller scale) to fight their war.

To me it's the same subject and if you allow opinions on one issue then also allow it on similar issues.

[Templar Knight]

I'm sorry Byzantine_Prince but why do you believe that the US deserves another attack?, you have lost me

Why should innocent people who are trying to get through life, people who probably don't like their governments foreign policy, be targeted by cowards who cant fight face to face, planning their cold blooded actions to kill men, women and children in the most gruesome way possible. I find it disgusting that anyone can say 'they deserve another attack'.

No one deserves terrorism!

[PanzerJaeger]

This thread is not about Gregoshis actions, its not about iraq, and its not about poor americans being mistreated by the mods. The thread was meant to be informative to the mods and let them know we take this seriously.

What he said is equivolent to him saying "Black people deserve and should be lynched" or "Jews deserve and should be gassed", just interchange blacks or Jews with Americans.

You can read it yourself. He does not even use the past tense when he declared that we need to be attacked again.