Results 1 to 30 of 304

Thread: Initial Patch Thoughts

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Simulation Monkey Member The_Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    2,613

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Has anyone else found that Gaul is now obsessed with warbands?
    Now, I haven't seen any mass warband-armies as of yet, they all were quite mixed troops that I've seen. Could it be that while you waited for them to build up their troops, they actually built up their troops. But as warbands. Lots of 'em.

    If you weren't fighting them, thus them not having any big battles that'd sorta "remove" their out-dated troops from circulation in favor of newer ones, and AI not disbanding units, wouldn't that lead to massed armies of WBs because they couldn't build anything else back then, and now, 'cause of their income's flowing right to the hands of WB armies, they don't have the money to build better ones.

    Well, that's my theory.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mark
    If you weren't fighting them, thus them not having any big battles that'd sorta "remove" their out-dated troops from circulation in favor of newer ones, and AI not disbanding units, wouldn't that lead to massed armies of WBs because they couldn't build anything else back then, and now, 'cause of their income's flowing right to the hands of WB armies, they don't have the money to build better ones.
    Not a bad idea. I have destroyed quite a few armies with 7-10 warbands a piece in them when the Gauls sent them to attack my territory; every Gaulish army I have encountered has been a mass of warbands and the AI has been admirably agressive in attacking my borders and raiding my farmlands. As far as I can tell each of those warband armies was replaced by another warband army, and certainly the Gaulish lands are packed with more warbands. It is hard to tell exactly what the AI does with its build orders though ...

    I shall go on the offensive to kill several thousand hairy barbarians and see what crops up to replace them
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  3. #3
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #4
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Hoover "Two a day" Alabama
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    For my part, its not that I dislike the routing itself (I like the idea of more morale levels in 1.2) , its that the early battles I've fought are too quick and require almost no command and control to win.
    E Tenebris Lux
    Just one old soldiers opinion.
    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  5. #5
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Searching for the ORG's lost honor
    Posts
    4,657

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    I don't mind the tendency to rout. I find it more representative. The problem is the kill rate...not the tendency to rout. High kill rates make the action too quick.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  6. #6
    Member Member Lord of the Isles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    286

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...
    Morale and routing are important, sure. I'm even happy to accept that a raw, untrained army might not last for long against a much better one. But do you really think it happened in seconds, as it does in unmodded RTW? I've had battles where 5 seconds after melee started the first unit routed and 5 seconds after that a chain reaction 90% of army rout was in progress.

    I refuse to believe it happened that quickly in real life. Take a battle like Cannae, where both armies were composed of troops either seasoned, trained or well equiped (as opposed to raw "javelin fodder"). There was enough time for maneuvering, clashes on both wings to be resolved and for the Carthaginian wings to return to attack the roman centre from behind.

    Now, imagine the RTW engine producing a battle like that. I can't. The unmodded game at least; all hail those wonderful modders who have gone some way towards making the game playable.

  7. #7
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Hoover "Two a day" Alabama
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Isles
    Morale and routing are important, sure. I'm even happy to accept that a raw, untrained army might not last for long against a much better one. But do you really think it happened in seconds, as it does in unmodded RTW? I've had battles where 5 seconds after melee started the first unit routed and 5 seconds after that a chain reaction 90% of army rout was in progress.

    I refuse to believe it happened that quickly in real life. Take a battle like Cannae, where both armies were composed of troops either seasoned, trained or well equiped (as opposed to raw "javelin fodder"). There was enough time for maneuvering, clashes on both wings to be resolved and for the Carthaginian wings to return to attack the roman centre from behind.

    Now, imagine the RTW engine producing a battle like that. I can't. The unmodded game at least; all hail those wonderful modders who have gone some way towards making the game playable.
    I agree that routing occurs too quickly in the early battles, but to some extent you've answered your own point. Cannae was fought by two armies of seasoned troops. My battles with 1.2 so far have not matched two such armies so I'd expect troops to rout when flanked by cav and facing a much superior general. Hopefully though, the battles will require longer engagements as the unit morale rises.
    E Tenebris Lux
    Just one old soldiers opinion.
    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  8. #8
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,465

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerH
    I agree that routing occurs too quickly in the early battles, but to some extent you've answered your own point. Cannae was fought by two armies of seasoned troops. My battles with 1.2 so far have not matched two such armies so I'd expect troops to rout when flanked by cav and facing a much superior general. Hopefully though, the battles will require longer engagements as the unit morale rises.

    I believe the Romans troops in that battle were NOT "seasoned". Please see the link I provided in my previous post.

    ...Varro and Paullus departed Rome with their newly raised army and headed towards the army of Germinus and Regulus, already following Hannibal and heading towards Cannae....
    ...Experience was another crucial element in this battle. Hannibal's men were veterans of at least two campaigns against the Romans. His African troops had been with him since he touched Italian soil. His Gallic, Spanish, and Numidian troops were fierce fighters that had been with him for at least one season of fighting....
    ...Rome's levies were fresh troops. A majority was untested, thus increasing the need for quality leadership. That, coupled with such a large number of troops, played a factor in the events at Cannae....
    Maybe the author is incorrect[?], but he has referenced his writings.

    Sooo, ahhhh, what execuse now for the lame battle speed CA has implemented?

    RTW = LCD [Lowest Common Denominator]
    LCD = Dumbed Down
    Last edited by ToranagaSama; 02-09-2005 at 19:29.
    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


    The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
    Graphics files and Text files
    Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.

  9. #9
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Hoover "Two a day" Alabama
    Posts
    932

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by ToranagaSama
    I believe the Romans troops in that battle were NOT "seasoned". Please see the link I provided in my previous post.

    Maybe the author is incorrect[?], but he has referenced his writings.

    Sooo, ahhhh, what execuse now for the lame battle speed CA has implemented?

    RTW = LCD [Lowest Common Denominator]
    LCD = Dumbed Down
    You're talking to the wrong person:

    1) I know nothing about the battle of Cannae. I merely commented on Lord of the isles post. He asserted that both were seasoned armies. If that were true then one would expect a longer battle than with two unseasoned armies.

    2) As an ex soldier I'm quite aware of the value of professionalism/morale etc.

    3) I've commented in many other threads about the inappropriate battle (overall), killing, and movement speeds.
    E Tenebris Lux
    Just one old soldiers opinion.
    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  10. #10
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,465

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...

    So then, given the above, you must explain what it was about the Romans that made them so superior? If they were just "hack[ing]" away like everyone else then WHAT was at the root of their success?

    How and why would one "get... the worst" of it? Was it just luck? Was there no skill, no thought, no plan?

    Wasn't the battle goal to attempt to, in some fashion, surround your opponent? Wasn't it that once an enemy *perceived* himself *about to be surrounded, in some fashion, that THEN the enemy would rout?

    Here's a dose of realism for ya:

    Hannibal's victory at Cannae

    At the onset of the battle, the Roman and Carthaginian skirmishers began to pick at each other, testing for weaknesses and trying to force their opponent into committing to a plan of action (Lazenby, 1978). It wasn't until Hannibal's heavy cavalry charged the Roman right flank that the battle began in earnest. Hasdrubal's 7,000 Spanish and Gallic heavy cavalry collided with Paullus' 2,400 Italian heavy cavalry (Peddie, 1997). Immediately, the sheer force of numbers began driving the Romans back. To make matters worse, the river to their right and the infantry to their left effectively hemmed in the Romans. Many left their horses to fight on foot, allowing riderless horses to plunge unchecked through the Roman lines, causing further confusion (Lamb, 1960). The Romans were soon routed and began fleeing back towards their main camp and up the hill to Cannae. Hasdrubal successfully maintained command of his troops and rode behind the advancing Roman infantry and assisted the Numidians attack the Roman allied cavalry (de Beer, 1969).

    On Rome's left flank, Varro held his ground against the Numidian light cavalry. His troops did not ride after the fleet, shaggy mounts of the Africans, but instead braved their pulsing style of attack. Indeed, Varro was effectively and efficiently upholding his initial plan of having his cavalry withstand attack until his infantry could break the Carthaginian center. However, when Hasdrubal's heavy cavalry threatened his right flank, Varro and his men rode with haste from the field. The Numidians gave chase while yet again Hasdrubal reformed his troops for attack (Lazenby, 1978).At the onset of the initial cavalry rush, the skirmishers for both sides melted back into their respective lines. The formation presented to the Romans was unique. Hannibal's Gauls and Spanish troops were arrayed in a convex line, with the outermost point closest to the Roman legions. Intent on destroying their enemy, the Romans began their steady, tightly maintained march towards the Carthaginian forces. The Gauls and Spaniards fought valiantly, but had to give ground due to the sheer number of Roman troops. As they made their slow retreat, their line flexed backward from convex to straight, and then finally concave. Meanwhile, the impetus of the Roman's forward advance carried them between the two African heavy infantry forces (Caven, 1980). Paullus, after the routing of his cavalry, assisted in leading the Romans towards their foe. As the front line of the Romans began to tire and meet continual resistance from the Gallic and Spanish troops, they realized they had nowhere to go for retreat. By that time, the Gauls and Spaniards had been pushed to the rear of their battle lines. They had yielded ground, but never broke before the Roman legions. The Roman advance slowly ground to a halt as those in front were stymied while those behind continually pressed forward.

    At this time, Hannibal signaled the final stage of his battle plan. With the sound of war horns, the heavy African infantry wheeled towards each other and began attacking the Roman flanks (Caven, 1980). Meanwhile, the Gauls and Spaniards redoubled their efforts and applied pressure to the Italian front ranks. It was also at this time that Hasdrubal's heavy cavalry crashed into the back of the Roman infantry, effectively sealing off any avenues of escape. As the Romans vainly sought to free themselves from this perfectly executed double envelopment, the battle turned into a massacre.
    Tactics Used in the battle of Cannae

    Convex-Straight-Concave-Hold-Flank-->Victory

    If you can, at all, envision this battle, it should be quite clear that the above battle tactics can NOT be implemented in RTW for the simple reason that Units will NOT *Hold* long enough for the battle (manueverings) to develop.

    The lesson is if you, as a player, are in any way as capable a Total War general as Hannibal, you are going to get your butt kicked by the lousy battle settings that CA has implemented----and it SUCKS!

    The game has been dumbed down and is unplayable (at least in 1.1 version, holding personal reservation for 1.2, but from the looks of the comments, there is no hope).

    BTW, does anyone have a graphic/video of the battle that they could upload?
    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


    The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
    Graphics files and Text files
    Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO