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Thread: Initial Patch Thoughts

  1. #151
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    So far (as Carthage) I've faced fairly mixed Roman armies including hastati, cav, missles (cant say what type since the battles were so fast), and even roman wardogs. Its possible that they were the starting units rather than built-fresh though.

    I'm definitely seeing more use of AI fleets to blockade ports.

    Land battles have been very fast due to enemy routing. Hopefully that will change as I face more experienced armies with better morale.

    My alliance with the Gauls fell apart when I suggested we exchange maps!

    Etna erupted killing a high percentage of all troops nearby. I've always liked a few random disasters ever since Civ (I).

    Pathfinding in cities does not appear to be improved.
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  2. #152
    Simulation Monkey Member The_Mark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Has anyone else found that Gaul is now obsessed with warbands?
    Now, I haven't seen any mass warband-armies as of yet, they all were quite mixed troops that I've seen. Could it be that while you waited for them to build up their troops, they actually built up their troops. But as warbands. Lots of 'em.

    If you weren't fighting them, thus them not having any big battles that'd sorta "remove" their out-dated troops from circulation in favor of newer ones, and AI not disbanding units, wouldn't that lead to massed armies of WBs because they couldn't build anything else back then, and now, 'cause of their income's flowing right to the hands of WB armies, they don't have the money to build better ones.

    Well, that's my theory.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    RTW is...sort of like assemble it yourself furniture...but without the instructions.

    ROFL

    As for the patch, the speed at which units rout is still my main reason for not playing this game seriously.

  4. #154
    Flying Dutchman Member Ellesthyan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    EDIT
    Last edited by Ellesthyan; 02-07-2005 at 18:01. Reason: Meh, double post
    A.E.I.O.U.

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  5. #155
    Flying Dutchman Member Ellesthyan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Can we add new campaigns without adding a new installation of Rome?

    There is a mechanism for this, however it is not yet ready for prime time. It will be exposed in a future patch and detailed in the guide.
    This is a Q/A answered by Jerome Grasdyke. If I understand correctly, this mechanism is not yet exposed, so should we assume that more patches will follow?
    A.E.I.O.U.

    Austria Est Imperare Orbi Universo
    Austria is destined to rule the world.

    (Or, as the Prussians interpretated it:
    Austria Erit In Orbe Ultima
    Austria will one day be lowest in the world.)

    Österreich über alles!

  6. #156

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mark
    If you weren't fighting them, thus them not having any big battles that'd sorta "remove" their out-dated troops from circulation in favor of newer ones, and AI not disbanding units, wouldn't that lead to massed armies of WBs because they couldn't build anything else back then, and now, 'cause of their income's flowing right to the hands of WB armies, they don't have the money to build better ones.
    Not a bad idea. I have destroyed quite a few armies with 7-10 warbands a piece in them when the Gauls sent them to attack my territory; every Gaulish army I have encountered has been a mass of warbands and the AI has been admirably agressive in attacking my borders and raiding my farmlands. As far as I can tell each of those warband armies was replaced by another warband army, and certainly the Gaulish lands are packed with more warbands. It is hard to tell exactly what the AI does with its build orders though ...

    I shall go on the offensive to kill several thousand hairy barbarians and see what crops up to replace them
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  7. #157
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  8. #158
    Member Member zbrenhz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Tzepes
    Strange thing happened yesterday, while assaulting, as Chartage, a Roman settlement. Some infantry climbing the walls with ladders. The first men reach the top and, as usual, I order them to run towards the closest tower. It worked smoothly until now, in 1.0, but now all the guys still on the ladder threw themselves over, yelling as they crush on the ground. wow that was cool, half the unit gone in 1 second. Never seen that before.
    I had a simillar problem with a siege tower and (I think it was) a large stone wall. The men came out from the tower right, but after I ordered them to run, the rest fell down one by one, dissapearing inside the wall. I ended the battle, loaded and tryed again: same thing happening again. Haven't seen it since, though.

  9. #159
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    For my part, its not that I dislike the routing itself (I like the idea of more morale levels in 1.2) , its that the early battles I've fought are too quick and require almost no command and control to win.
    E Tenebris Lux
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    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  10. #160
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    I don't mind the tendency to rout. I find it more representative. The problem is the kill rate...not the tendency to rout. High kill rates make the action too quick.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  11. #161

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by hoom
    Popup buttons at top are a pain for me since I use the mouse for camera movement. Would be nice to have an option for permanently on.
    There is that option. Pressing the appropriate F button will switch between 3 options - hidden, auto-roll, and stuck. I believe CBR posted this before me, but in fewer words ;).

    Quote Originally Posted by hoom
    Auto preferences -still there, still stupid, still won't let me use 1280 * 1024 without altering the file
    In my experience (using funny resolutions and such on my widescreen monitor), RTW reads from the graphics driver. So, if I add a custom res in the driver's control panel (I have an nvidia, not sure if ATI supports custom res's although it would make sense), it will be selectable in RTW.

    I love that they have added this... But I wish i could carry on my British campaign.. is there a way to unlock at the fractions yet with 1.2 ??
    The faction unlocking mod still works with 1.2. None of the faction descriptions were changed.

    As for the pathfinding issue in cities, it is most annoying when your unit gets spread out on a street and you need to attack an enemy. The unit will attempt to attack the center (average position? flagbearer?) of the enemy unit, so my men on the ends just walk past the enemy (who is attacking them) in an attempt to reach the center. With the pathfinding, they may end up going around several blocks before they get to their destination and start attacking. This has been a problem before, but it seems to be worse in 1.2.

    Overall, though, I am extremely satisfied, especially with the campaign map improvements and editors.

    - nickersonm

  12. #162
    Spends his time on TWC Member Simetrical's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Do not install any 1.1 "unlock all factions" mod. Such mods edit the file descr_strat.txt, which was also modified in the 1.2 patch. You will lose some of the patch's additions if you overwrite that file. Instead, modify it by hand—go to Rome - Total War\data\world\map\campaign\imperial_campaign\descr_strat.txt, look for the lists of factions at the very top, and add all factions you want to unlock to the "playable" list. If you want the maps, get them from a mod that unlocks all factions, but be sure not to overwrite descr_strat.txt.

    EDIT: Turns out I was wrong. descr_strat was not affected by the patch.

    Anyway, the pathfinding is distressing, but there are no glaring bugs other than that. If only something close to this were the original product, and CA's two patches could've dealt with pathfinding and opening up the game more to modders, RTW would be perfect.

    -Simetrical
    Last edited by Simetrical; 02-10-2005 at 04:27.
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  13. #163

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    One good thing... the Scythian females no longer look like their faces were painted by Picasso...

  14. #164
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Alt - Click.to.move Works
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  15. #165
    Member Member Lord of the Isles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...
    Morale and routing are important, sure. I'm even happy to accept that a raw, untrained army might not last for long against a much better one. But do you really think it happened in seconds, as it does in unmodded RTW? I've had battles where 5 seconds after melee started the first unit routed and 5 seconds after that a chain reaction 90% of army rout was in progress.

    I refuse to believe it happened that quickly in real life. Take a battle like Cannae, where both armies were composed of troops either seasoned, trained or well equiped (as opposed to raw "javelin fodder"). There was enough time for maneuvering, clashes on both wings to be resolved and for the Carthaginian wings to return to attack the roman centre from behind.

    Now, imagine the RTW engine producing a battle like that. I can't. The unmodded game at least; all hail those wonderful modders who have gone some way towards making the game playable.

  16. #166
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of the Isles
    Morale and routing are important, sure. I'm even happy to accept that a raw, untrained army might not last for long against a much better one. But do you really think it happened in seconds, as it does in unmodded RTW? I've had battles where 5 seconds after melee started the first unit routed and 5 seconds after that a chain reaction 90% of army rout was in progress.

    I refuse to believe it happened that quickly in real life. Take a battle like Cannae, where both armies were composed of troops either seasoned, trained or well equiped (as opposed to raw "javelin fodder"). There was enough time for maneuvering, clashes on both wings to be resolved and for the Carthaginian wings to return to attack the roman centre from behind.

    Now, imagine the RTW engine producing a battle like that. I can't. The unmodded game at least; all hail those wonderful modders who have gone some way towards making the game playable.
    I agree that routing occurs too quickly in the early battles, but to some extent you've answered your own point. Cannae was fought by two armies of seasoned troops. My battles with 1.2 so far have not matched two such armies so I'd expect troops to rout when flanked by cav and facing a much superior general. Hopefully though, the battles will require longer engagements as the unit morale rises.
    E Tenebris Lux
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    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  17. #167
    Member Member Claudius Maniacus Sextus's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    its good for such an buged game,especialy the later marian reforms,and better ai.to bad for the HA!

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  18. #168

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Wh1teWolf
    Going back to the AI besides Screwtypes constant bitchin and complainin on every dumbass post he makes...All in all its a great patch and makes for great campaigns it's like a totaly different game then 1.1, WELL DONE CA!!!!!!!!
    While I don't appreciate your gratuitous rudeness whitewolf, having had the opportunity to play this game solidly for the last few days, I think maybe I've been a bit too hard on it.

    I was deeply disappointed with the initial release of the game, it had so many bugs on my PC it was almost unplayable. Since I got the patch, I've had only one CTD (when I right clicked on a portrait on my family tree) and I've had more time to get into it.

    And I must admit, despite the flaws, I'm having fun with the patched game, and I'm coming to appreciate and enjoy some of the design decisions that I was quite critical of before.

    I'm now coming to the same view as many of the other posters on the RTW forums, that probably the thing I'd most like to see is an improved campaign and battle AI, because the game is still too easy to beat, and I can see myself losing interest over time. But right now, I'm having a bit of a blast, in spite of the niggles there's obviously a huge amount of effort that went into making this, and I think CA deserves our appreciation for what they have achieved.

    Now guys, all I ask is that you keep improving on what you've already done until you've built a game we just can't stop playing

  19. #169
    Resident Superhero Member Obex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Do not install any 1.1 "unlock all factions" mod. Such mods edit the file descr_strat.txt, which was also modified in the 1.2 patch. You will lose some of the patch's additions if you overwrite that file. Instead, modify it by hand—go to Rome - Total War\data\world\map\campaign\imperial_campaign\descr_strat.txt, look for the lists of factions at the very top, and add all factions you want to unlock to the "playable" list. If you want the maps, get them from a mod that unlocks all factions, but be sure not to overwrite descr_strat.txt.
    Crud, I didnt think about this. If someone could send me the descr_strat.txt, it would save me a reinstall, and make me oh so very happy. Either a PM would work. Thanks.
    Last edited by Obex; 02-10-2005 at 17:02.
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  20. #170
    Member Member Turbo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    This patch completely ignored tons of posts regarding the hyperspeed killing rates during battles. There is almost no tactical skill that can be exercised when a battle lasts under 60 seconds. I have to cut the swing rate to 50% just to get an enjoyable pace.
    Last edited by Turbo; 02-08-2005 at 22:22.
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  21. #171
    Resident Superhero Member Obex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Another thing that i have noticed that is unchanged in the patch is how troops still fall down at random at the start of battle. while this isnt much of a problem on flat terrain, on a city wall it is quite damaging. perhaps my biggest irritation with the game.
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  22. #172

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    The depressing thing is that im really excited when battles last over 1 minute..... Medieval was never like that unless the enemy was utterly useless, you could enjoy and watch the battle unfold make tactical decisions changes, alterations in battle and see the difference Rome is just send infantry in they charge if the enemy doesnt run one cav charge inthe side and they all run after only 25% casualties.

  23. #173
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Ok, I don't know if this is just my system (which is buggy at the moment), or added in the patch, but disbanding troops no longer adds to city population in my game. I made a few units of peasants to shuffle over to a city I wanted to quickly boost to the 2000 mark, disbanded them, and the population was still the same. Is anyone else experiencing this?
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

  24. #174

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    No, I'm not experiencing that Quillan. I've been frantically churning out peasants to add to the pitiful populations of cities I've exterminated and they are all definitely adding to the pop. when disbanded.

  25. #175

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo
    This patch completely ignored tons of posts regarding the hyperspeed killing rates during battles. There is almost no tactical skill that can be exercised when a battle lasts under 60 seconds. I have to cut the swing rate to 50% just to get an enjoyable pace.
    What do you mean "cut the swing rate to 50%", and how did you do that?

    I've been thinking about adding an extra hit point to all units to make the battles last longer, but I want to play one or two campaigns right to the end before I start making changes.

  26. #176
    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    I havent fought the Numideans before but in light of the warband issue I'm wondering if the strange makeup of the armies I faced was the same 'bug'. The numidean army I crushed was 10 units of skirmishers with some (very effective) heavy cav that were probably family members.
    E Tenebris Lux
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    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

  27. #177
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by GeWee
    Of course "single unit match ups often melee much longer" than when large armies clash. It's because the single units don't get flanked.

    Sheesh...

    Anyway, the reason why battles are over so quick isn't the kill rate, it's the fact that low-valor units rout as soon as the other side seems to get the upper hand.

    Big battles do last longer unless you don't have reserves or reinforcements thereby letting all your units rout at the same time. If you rally your routing troops and keep a second line with fresh troops the large battles last way longer than smaller ones.
    They don't last as long as battles did in real life no, but then our armies are like one tenth of the size of armies back then...

    The only kill rate that would benefit from a change is the one for routers but that's a different issue.

    Arggggghhh! Sorry, I just hate it when those who don't know what they're talking about talk as if they do.

    Longer Battles are NOT about having *longer* battles, but about having HIGH TACTICAL battles. Unmodded the RTW does not allow for Tactical battles---PERIOD!

    Simply slamming reserves/reinforcements is not a substitute....

    Also, in STW and MTW, there were several other variables, in addition, to *valour* that effected a unit's ability to Stand and Hold (not rout). A player with a FULL comprehension of the variables and with experience could compensate for unit *type* and valour weaknesses, as well as using those same variables to maximize his advantages. TERRAIN played a *much* greater part in the outcome of a battle.

    More to the point of what irks me about your post: do you *think* you have more experience, more knowledge, more contemplation, of the Total War series than the poster you replied to?

    I mean really some people know what they are talking about and some people don't; and then there are those who *think* they do.

    ~ToranagaSama

    ---

    Opps, GFX707, said it all so much more succintly.

    Oh, I see, Colvion, bless him, honored you by responding in precisely the manner you demanded, an explanation. The man took his time and effort, and this is all you have to say:

    I do enjoy them. I'd enjoy them more if it was possible to fight 50,000 vs 50,000 battles that would last half an hour but until we have computers capable of that I'll settle for what I have. IMO it's better to have realistic kill speeds than to nerf them to simulate that each unit is 10 times larger than it is...
    Why don't you honor him (and the rest of us) and respond to the points he brought up? HINT: Tactics!!!

    BTW, what is realistic about Vanilla combat speeds?

    Ban me if you will, but RTW Newbies are a clueless butch.

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  28. #178
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Can't really understand why people don't like the routing... That's what happened in real life. They didn't hack each other to the death, they charged at each other, hacked a little, and then the one getting the worst beating fled... It didn't take a long time, and certainly not enough time to order units about, as one complained about not being able to do...

    Humans aren't really as brave as some like to think when it comes down to dying...

    So then, given the above, you must explain what it was about the Romans that made them so superior? If they were just "hack[ing]" away like everyone else then WHAT was at the root of their success?

    How and why would one "get... the worst" of it? Was it just luck? Was there no skill, no thought, no plan?

    Wasn't the battle goal to attempt to, in some fashion, surround your opponent? Wasn't it that once an enemy *perceived* himself *about to be surrounded, in some fashion, that THEN the enemy would rout?

    Here's a dose of realism for ya:

    Hannibal's victory at Cannae

    At the onset of the battle, the Roman and Carthaginian skirmishers began to pick at each other, testing for weaknesses and trying to force their opponent into committing to a plan of action (Lazenby, 1978). It wasn't until Hannibal's heavy cavalry charged the Roman right flank that the battle began in earnest. Hasdrubal's 7,000 Spanish and Gallic heavy cavalry collided with Paullus' 2,400 Italian heavy cavalry (Peddie, 1997). Immediately, the sheer force of numbers began driving the Romans back. To make matters worse, the river to their right and the infantry to their left effectively hemmed in the Romans. Many left their horses to fight on foot, allowing riderless horses to plunge unchecked through the Roman lines, causing further confusion (Lamb, 1960). The Romans were soon routed and began fleeing back towards their main camp and up the hill to Cannae. Hasdrubal successfully maintained command of his troops and rode behind the advancing Roman infantry and assisted the Numidians attack the Roman allied cavalry (de Beer, 1969).

    On Rome's left flank, Varro held his ground against the Numidian light cavalry. His troops did not ride after the fleet, shaggy mounts of the Africans, but instead braved their pulsing style of attack. Indeed, Varro was effectively and efficiently upholding his initial plan of having his cavalry withstand attack until his infantry could break the Carthaginian center. However, when Hasdrubal's heavy cavalry threatened his right flank, Varro and his men rode with haste from the field. The Numidians gave chase while yet again Hasdrubal reformed his troops for attack (Lazenby, 1978).At the onset of the initial cavalry rush, the skirmishers for both sides melted back into their respective lines. The formation presented to the Romans was unique. Hannibal's Gauls and Spanish troops were arrayed in a convex line, with the outermost point closest to the Roman legions. Intent on destroying their enemy, the Romans began their steady, tightly maintained march towards the Carthaginian forces. The Gauls and Spaniards fought valiantly, but had to give ground due to the sheer number of Roman troops. As they made their slow retreat, their line flexed backward from convex to straight, and then finally concave. Meanwhile, the impetus of the Roman's forward advance carried them between the two African heavy infantry forces (Caven, 1980). Paullus, after the routing of his cavalry, assisted in leading the Romans towards their foe. As the front line of the Romans began to tire and meet continual resistance from the Gallic and Spanish troops, they realized they had nowhere to go for retreat. By that time, the Gauls and Spaniards had been pushed to the rear of their battle lines. They had yielded ground, but never broke before the Roman legions. The Roman advance slowly ground to a halt as those in front were stymied while those behind continually pressed forward.

    At this time, Hannibal signaled the final stage of his battle plan. With the sound of war horns, the heavy African infantry wheeled towards each other and began attacking the Roman flanks (Caven, 1980). Meanwhile, the Gauls and Spaniards redoubled their efforts and applied pressure to the Italian front ranks. It was also at this time that Hasdrubal's heavy cavalry crashed into the back of the Roman infantry, effectively sealing off any avenues of escape. As the Romans vainly sought to free themselves from this perfectly executed double envelopment, the battle turned into a massacre.
    Tactics Used in the battle of Cannae

    Convex-Straight-Concave-Hold-Flank-->Victory

    If you can, at all, envision this battle, it should be quite clear that the above battle tactics can NOT be implemented in RTW for the simple reason that Units will NOT *Hold* long enough for the battle (manueverings) to develop.

    The lesson is if you, as a player, are in any way as capable a Total War general as Hannibal, you are going to get your butt kicked by the lousy battle settings that CA has implemented----and it SUCKS!

    The game has been dumbed down and is unplayable (at least in 1.1 version, holding personal reservation for 1.2, but from the looks of the comments, there is no hope).

    BTW, does anyone have a graphic/video of the battle that they could upload?
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  29. #179
    Lord of the Kanto Senior Member ToranagaSama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerH
    I agree that routing occurs too quickly in the early battles, but to some extent you've answered your own point. Cannae was fought by two armies of seasoned troops. My battles with 1.2 so far have not matched two such armies so I'd expect troops to rout when flanked by cav and facing a much superior general. Hopefully though, the battles will require longer engagements as the unit morale rises.

    I believe the Romans troops in that battle were NOT "seasoned". Please see the link I provided in my previous post.

    ...Varro and Paullus departed Rome with their newly raised army and headed towards the army of Germinus and Regulus, already following Hannibal and heading towards Cannae....
    ...Experience was another crucial element in this battle. Hannibal's men were veterans of at least two campaigns against the Romans. His African troops had been with him since he touched Italian soil. His Gallic, Spanish, and Numidian troops were fierce fighters that had been with him for at least one season of fighting....
    ...Rome's levies were fresh troops. A majority was untested, thus increasing the need for quality leadership. That, coupled with such a large number of troops, played a factor in the events at Cannae....
    Maybe the author is incorrect[?], but he has referenced his writings.

    Sooo, ahhhh, what execuse now for the lame battle speed CA has implemented?

    RTW = LCD [Lowest Common Denominator]
    LCD = Dumbed Down
    Last edited by ToranagaSama; 02-09-2005 at 19:29.
    In Victory and Defeat there is much honor
    For valor is a gift And those who posses it
    Never know for certain They will have it
    When the next test comes....


    The next test is the MedMod 3.14; strive with honor.
    Graphics files and Text files
    Load Graphics 1st, Texts 2nd.

  30. #180
    Member Member Turbo's Avatar
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    Oct 2002
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    New Jersey
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    414

    Default Re: Initial Patch Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by screwtype
    What do you mean "cut the swing rate to 50%", and how did you do that?

    I've been thinking about adding an extra hit point to all units to make the battles last longer, but I want to play one or two campaigns right to the end before I start making changes.
    The swing rate is in the export_unit_desc file in the Data directory.
    When you decide that servicing your core niche is no longer important, you might as well put a gun to your corporate temple. - Red Harvest -

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