Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

[Simetrical]

i'm sure modders will be able to fix this, as javalin cavalry still works properly, so it shouldn't be to difficult to fix

It would probably be very easy to fix—if we had access to the decompiled executable. We don't. We can't effectively edit RTW.exe, and that's where the problem is.

-Simetrical

[Sam Adams]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

[Spino]

Vrabac over at TWC has noticed something odd about the firing animation for ALL archer units...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...ic=20693&st=12

I tried the javelin armed cavalry and they seem to work fine. On the other hand, I noticed that archers in general now aim higher. So maybe this is connected somehow? Javelinmen look exactly the same, only the javelins seem to travel in a more deep trajectory. But archers actually have slightly changed animation, so maybe that's where all the horse-archer problems come from? Also, i noticed that horse archers often lean back when refusing to shoot. Maybe it really has something to do with skeletons? Perhaps if you can somehow return old ones?

I think this merits further investigation...

[BassV2]

tell me, your horse is galloping at full speed, you don't hold on to it and instead u shoot a bow and arrow accurately?

[Steppe Merc]

Good lord. Please stop! You don't know anything about the steppe do you?
Horses can be controlled easily by only with your legs. These were the best.
YOU ARE WRONG. PLEASE STOP!
And bows are way more accurate than guns on horse back. Besides, I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today.

Frankly, if you don't know what you talking about, don't tell us this. Because we want it fixed, and don't try and stop us from playing a good game. I'm sick of all the ignorant comments.

[QwertyMIDX]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change .

[Sam Adams]

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

[Doug-Thompson]

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

Major Hawker, Royal Flying Corps, became an ace in 1915 by wiring a bolt-action rifle to his crate's fuselage at a 45-degree angle to the line of flight, so the rounds fired wouldn't hit the propeller.

French WWI Ace Rene Foch was able to shoot down aircraft with as few as seven rounds fired. Canadian ace Billy Bishop wrote in his memoirs that the target to hit was the upper half of the pilot's body. Bishop was also a master of the "head-on" shot, relying on his superior marksmanship and nerve.

While it is true that forward firing machine guns help, your statement that "you can't shoot(accurately) while moving" is false on its face, otherwise nothing would ever have been shot down in three-dimensional air-to-air combat with guns, sometimes at closing speeds of several hundred of miles per hour with simple optical sights.

===========

If horse archers stopped before they fired, then everyone would have had horse archers. It would not have required any special skill. The practice would not have been confined to Parthia and eastwards.

It should also be mentioned that Mongol light cavalry carried two bows: one for when they did dismount, one for shooting from horseback.

==========

The website already listed on this thread shows people taking archery shots at a gallop. It contains an well-verified account of a guy shooting at a wildcat in Florida from the back of a galloping horse. On his first attempt ever to shoot from a gallop, he missed only because he led the target, forgetting that he was moving too.

============

Texas Rangers perfected the technique of charging in with pistols, the original Colt revolvers and their imitators.

[CBR]

Of course horsearchers could shoot while moving fast. Is it as accurate as when standing still? no. Are horsearchers as accurate as foot archers? no. But they still did it. We have lots of written accounts about it and if you doubt all of that then look at the competitions they do today.

I found this video in a TWC thread: http://www.streamload.com/horsearche...se_archery.wmv The last half of it shows it can be done.

The Cantabrian Circle (mainly used by javelin armed cavalry IIRC) is basically same principle: Move in close, shoot and move out. You are moving fast to present a difficult target and close in to get some good shots and quickly move away to reduce the danger.


CBR

[Orda Khan]

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.

You make sweeping statements that contradict historical reports, so again I ask you to produce some source. There are many ways to make a point but all I have seen is your 'opinion' rather than 'factual report'.

Obviously you choose to ignore the many battle reports of those who actually came into contact with these people

.......Orda

[Steppe Merc]

Has anyone tested out Qwerty's fix?

And thank you Doug, CBR, and Orda.

[Harald the ROCK]

And this was the last patch they were going to make...

[lars573]

I guess the morale of this story is be careful what you wish for. Ironic that fixing friendly fire broke horse archers.

[DwarvenPony]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change .

It seemed to work well for me, unless there is some side effect i didn`t notice. This would have to be done with all the missile chariots and elephants to, right? (Actually I did a small test with the elephants and they seemed to work correctly as it is.) I don`t have much experience in modding, so maybe there is others out there who have a little more insight who could look into it.

[hrvojej]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change .

YES!! I think you've nailed it!!
I wish I've read your post some 7 hrs ago though. Anything else I've tried in that period of time (not to mention yesterday) didn't work, from angles to velocities to missile types etc. Never mind the javelin icon, it works as it used to. Yihaaa...

Thank you very much!

ps.
Are elephants affected as well? I haven't looked at them, and right now I'd really prefer to play for a while instead of going back to testing.

[Steppe Merc]

So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly!

[hrvojej]

Steppe Merc[/B] So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly!

As far as I can tell, yes it works. I don't know whether there are any side effects other than the wrong icon. They still fire arrows, which should be affected by rain (at least it says so ) etc. as per projectile file. They just don't get interrupted or something, because I think the fire rate is also unaffected. And now I'm really going to do some playtime...

ps.
Steppe Merc, you don't have 1.2 installed? Could you briefly check whether some cavalries, such as barbarians, roundshields & longshields were "fast moving" prior to the 1.2. I seem to recall that they weren't, and now they are. Greek cav is also fast now, but I think it might have been before as well. Much appreciated if you go through the trouble.

[Steppe Merc]

Hmm... Where does it say it? In game, or the export descr unit text?
Because I can't find any fast moving attribute in that file...

[QwertyMIDX]

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

[Attalus]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

Wrong again Sam...
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~khar.../a-usseal3.jpg

[Ziu]

There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.



.......Orda

Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!!
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn!

[Red Harvest]

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

QwertyMIDX,

Thank you for the fix. I can confirm it works on every unit I tested. All of the mounted archers are broken to some degree. All of these units seem to have some sort of failure to their animation that causes them to halt the firing sequence prematurely. My elephants also seem to stop firing for long stretches for no apparent reason after the first volley, but my first attempt at fixing them with the "thrown" attribute was unsuccessful.

Repeating the fix from Qwerty: "I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement."

List of units to search for and fix:

barb chariot light briton
barb horse archers scythian
barb horse archers slave
barb noble horse archers scythian
barb scythian noblewomen scythian
east persian cavalry
east cataphract archer
east horse archer
east chariot archer
egyptian bedouin
egyptian chariot archer
egyptian general's bodyguard early
rebel amazon chariots
merc horse archers
merc bedouin archers

[Red Harvest]

Yes, that's true. Horse archery here in Japan is treated as more of an art form than a combat skill.

Having ridden horses as a youngster bareback and without reins I can tell you, with a little practice, one can swivel, spin or whatever quite easily. I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!!
I think the anti-accuracy comments are not taking into account the fact that one would be shooting into a mass of men/horses. Sort of like hitting the side of a barn!

Having ridden horses regularly as a boy, I think the problem is that the naysayers probably have never ridden a horse... I never tried shooting from one though.

[Chelifer]

I used to go hunting on horseback with a rifle and yes accuracy is more difficult at a gallop but less so than at a trot!!

I guess the main reason is one has relativelty long periods of predictable motion while at gallop (between jumps) compared to trotter.

[Red Harvest]

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

Horse archers definitely fired on the move. Actually the cavalry pursuit shot would be fairly easy, a direct astern pursuer at a similar speed is going to be essentially a stationary target for sighting. The idea of the Parthian shot is turning loose the shot as they get close, making them a rather easy target. They are not moving laterally to you, nor diagonally.

I've fired thousands of rounds as well...and I see no reason to believe I couldn't make such a shot once practiced.

But I guess it isn't so much about what we believe *we* could do. It is what they *DID* do. And there, the historical record clearly disagrees with your opinion.

[RJV]

Just out of interest I happened to see a program called 'Lost Inventions' on one of the Discovery Channels over the weekend where they were trying to recreate an Assyrian war chariot. The point relevant to this thread however was when they showed Mike Loades (of Time Commanders) riding a horse bareback, controlling the beast with his thighs/knees, travelling at a fair pace (not a gallop perhaps, but a fair lick) and shooting an arrow into a target as he moved.

OK so it doesn't prove anything as such, but if a weapons historian can do it with relative ease, then you can bet your life guys born and brought up in the saddles of the Steppe could do it.

But more seriously, thanks Qwerty, I'll mod that fix in tonight.

Cheers,

Rob.

[Puzz3D]

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change .

That fixes the problem for me. It works for your HA as well as AI controlled HA. Nice find.

I ran a test in v1.1 and v1.2 (with the HA fix) with an Armenian horse archer with 55 men chased by an AI controlled Sacred Band Pikemen with 82 men. In v1.1, the HA got 31 kills and in v1.2 it got 10 kills using all its arrows. I think the fewer kills in v1.2 is due to the new shield effect. When I controlled the Sacred Band Pikemen and always walked, never running as the AI often does, toward the AI controlled HA, I lost 0 men.

[Butcher]

Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

[Sam Adams]

the fact that "it happened" isnt a very good argument when dealing with simulating massed combat. Marines have shot and killed iraqis beyond 1000 yards. Would you make the effective range of modern simulation of a company of US marine infantry 1000 yards? uh no. It would be more like 100.

likewise, you cannot effectively attack from a gallop. It just hasnt happened in history. At carhae, for example, the romans were pinned down and relatively immobile. The horse archers had them surrounded and clearly would not have been firing from a gallop. napoleonic cavalry werent even issued muskets. US federal cavalry durring the indian wars and civil war dismounted to shoot. the light brigade carried swords, not guns. There is a reason for all this.

[Ellesthyan]

Anyway, you are all wrong; the HA are not historically accurate as they wore a lighter shade of purple.
:D

Lol!