Let's get to work: MP maps

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I had a try at the -enable_editor command line and was wondering if we could expand a bit the number of maps available for MP.

-enable_editor is a command line to add to your RTW shortcut. It enables the battle editor.
Once the command line is added, go to options, then start "Battle editor". You are directed to a screen with a small map of Europe.
Click on a square, and then next, and voila, you are designing a map.
The only thing we need to do from there is to press F1, tick on "MP maps" and save the map. THen you got to move the newly created "folder maps" around, but we'll get back to that point.

Each map is 2/2.5 Mb each, half that if zipped. That would make a mappack quite space consuming.
Would anyone be kind enough to host 50Mb of maps?

An alternative would be to have a very clear way to name maps so that we could all use the battle editor, and create the maps as we need them.

As a way to name maps I'd propose:

1/gives the texture name: RTW got
- alpine: ALP
- highland: HLD
- mediterranean: MED
- rocky_desert: RDS
- sandy-desert: SDS
- semi-arid: ARI
- sub-arctic: ACT
- swamp: SWP
- Temperate_forest_deep: TFD
- Temperate_forest_open: TFO
- Temperate_grassland_fertile: TGF
- Temperate_grassland_infertile: TGI
- Volcanic: VOL

2/ some idea of what is in there: is it flat, hills or mountain
- flat: FLT
- hills: HIL
- mountain: MTN
- wood: WOD

3/ Rivers Y/N: if there is one add RIV

Then I'll add the XX-YY location of the map.

So a gallic open plain would be something like:

[TFO-FLT]_49-98

I know it's not really poetic

The real question is: if I creae that map in my folder using that name, and if someone else pick the same exact spot, and give it the same exact name, is there any reason we can't play online together WITHOUT EXCHANGING FILE AT ALL?

In that case, all we would need is a single list of names for maps... And everyone would be able to play them.


What do you think would be easier? make a 50 Mb mappack? or trying to use the battle editor to create all the maps each on our own but sharing the way we make maps and name them?
(or just creates the map we feel would be of some interest; in which case, we still need to post the good spot).

I do think that RTW lack of maps in MP is a problem. Now the solution is in our hands.

Louis,

[Jochi Khan]

I hope Orda Khan has seen this thread.

He made some very good maps for MTW/VI

Jochi

[Orda Khan]

Just read it
Louis, would that be space -enable_editor, like the space -ian command?
It may be worth installing the patch just to have a look at the editor, there certainly is not much else about RTW that appeals but it seems CA have even over complicated this feature.
I would prefer to see 'poetic' map titles though Louis

.....Orda

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Yes Orda, that would be " -enable_editor".

My thought right now is we may not have to download maps AT ALL. After all, those maps are already on the campaign map!
All that it takes is we all name them the same way.

The alternative is to use the map editor creatively, alter maps from campaign, and then save them; in that case, download is compulsory, and for sure we can get poetic map Orda

(although some ways of knowing whether it's desert or hill or if it got a river would be appreciated: note, there is a comment box, maybe we can use it too?)

Louis,

[Aelwyn]

The real question is: if I creae that map in my folder using that name, and if someone else pick the same exact spot, and give it the same exact name, is there any reason we can't play online together WITHOUT EXCHANGING FILE AT ALL?

If I understand the way this is set up, it might not even be necessary at all. Just to see how it worked, I tried saving a new map, then seeing if I could load a battle onto it. After looking for the correct folder to move the map into, I realized the maps we use in MP aren't really saved in a custom folder, at least it doesn't seem like it. I might be confused. But the info for the maps seems to be in the "custom_locations" file in the Data folder. I added a location to the bottom, and it seemed to load fine in a custom battle. I also got online quickly to check if it was listed there, and it was. So, maybe all it would take is for someone to add as many locations as we want to have, just change the X and Y for each map. And if they want to take a screenshot of the map to add in the map selection screen, that info is there as well, along with the path for it. So that might be a simpler solution to what you're proposing. Just open the battle editor, find a map you like, take a screenshot, then add appropriate text to that file.

But where would custom maps go? I haven't figured that out yet.

[Nigel]

Louis, a very interesting concept !

I can see 2 things happening here (and they could both happen in parallell).
What you are suggesting is basically freeing up the pre-made maps of the SP campaign for MP battles. This is something everyone could do without downloading files using your nomenclature. All we would need is maybe a list of what are good terrains to use for this.

At the same time we could have creatively designed maps which would have to be downloaded, but which could have poetic names, like Orda suggests. There may be only a few of them, and perhaps made for special occasions (like tournaments, re-enactments etc.).


I'd love to give your way a try.
What do I have to do after saving [TFO-FLT]_49-98 ?
And can be meet up and try it out ?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Ok, I feel like trying Aelwyn idea.... and my initial idea too

In the file:

C:\Programmes\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\custom_locations

I just added the following entry:

custom_location Test_49-98
{
location 49 98
image data/menu/grass1.tga
sett_locked no
summer no
}


I have also created the following folder using the battle editor:

C:\Programmes\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\battle\custom\[TFO-FLT]_49-98

which I have copied in

C:\Programmes\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data\world\maps\custom\[TFO-FLT]_49-98

If anyone feel like giving it a go tonight, I'll be in the lobby.... you know my user

Louis,

[Nigel]

Yes, Louis,

as you said in the lobby today, Aelwyn's idea works really well.
And indeed, it is enough for the Host to have the modification made. This opens a tremendeous amount of MP maps. And you can even give them poetic names if you like. So the example above could also be Gallic_Plains_49-98 (or something even more poetic). All you need is the coordinates. I guess the game then calculates the map from there.

Now all we need is a stable Gamespy connection (sigh).

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

A sweet day indeed

Thanks Aelwyn, I think you are right, it's very easy to make all maps available.

in the C:\Programmes\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data folder, open the custom_locations.txt file

in that file, you can just add:
custom_location Test_49-98
{
location 49 98
image data/menu/grass1.tga
sett_locked no
summer no
}

and voila, you got the SP map 49-98 available!

What is really beautiful is ONLY THE HOST NEEDS IT! NO DOWNLOAD AT ALL!

Now, the question is; who is going to add all the custom locations with nice name in that file before making it available to all?



Louis,

[Aelwyn]

excellent.

Only the host needs the map? wow...thats a definite improvement. So basically this opens up hundreds of maps with a very small download.



Is there a way to run RTW in a smaller window, so I can type in the file while still being able to see what is going on in the game at the same time? If so documenting each new map would be much easier, and I'd probably give it a go myself. Its a pain to continuously alt-tab back and forth. And my video card just died. So I might be able to make the file, but won't be able to test it myself, as the vid card I'm using is way below the min spec.

[Sid_Quibley]

Great find Louis and Aelwyn.

You can run rtw in a window by adding " -ne" to your rome shortcut properties in the same way as the battle editor function.Also " -show_err" is a good one for catching any errors that may occur when editing files.

[L'Impresario]

Not sure if I have understood correctly all of this, but I do wonder how the replays will able to reproduce the host's custom map:-S

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Not a problem at all...

Since those maps are the one from the SP campaign, the system is able to retrieve them from the campaign map, and they replay just fine

Those are not "real" custom maps, not in the sense of Orda making new maps with the battle editor. Those additional maps are the SP campaign maps everyone got on his own hard drive with the map, this trick just make them available, ALL OF THEM for MP.

Louis,

[Orda Khan]

This being the case, I fear map making is a thing of the past. Nobody will install a map pack when they already have hundreds to choose from.

No need for me to install the patch after all

.....Orda

[Aelwyn]

This being the case, I fear map making is a thing of the past. Nobody will install a map pack when they already have hundreds to choose from.

No need for me to install the patch after all

.....Orda

You're giving too much credit to the maps that came with the game. I'm sure you and I both can think of many maps made by community members that are better than original ones in any of the TW games.

[Aelwyn]

I can work on some of this, but the problem is, there's literally thousands of maps, and I'm thinking it might be overkill to have a bunch of maps that are very similar. I think of it in the same way as what Orda is saying, maps would lose their uniqueness. I know having more choices is a good thing, but do we want to set a limit on this? I see the appeal of having so many maps it'd be hard to remember what each one looked like, and therefore harder to prepare for it...its the whole skill will overcome thing.

IMO maybe we should decide the criteria for different types of maps, then choose how many of each we want. That would leave room for anyone who wants to make a unique map to do so without feeling that their efforts don't matter. Because as it is right now, the maps that we can basically classify as being the same type of map are the same map...only with a few variations to them. Like having a map at point 31 150, and then 32 150, 33 150....it might not be necessary because they'll be very similar maps. So should there be guidelines to this, so we're not overwhelmed with a bunch of unimportant maps?

[Nigel]

Definitely, Alewyn.

There is no point in having 20 maps that are all flat desert.

Then with those maps which have features on them perhaps 5 or 10 different ones of each type would be enough. But I dont really have enough experience to judge on the numbers here.

But what I am looking forward, if this is possible, are a few maps with "special" locations: Fight in the shadow of the Pyramids. Battle as the Colossus of Rhodes watches from the background. Hide your troops in the Hanging Gardens.

And, of course as a joke, it is up to everyone himself to identify the coordinates of the place where he lives and defend his home town.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

It's very true we are going to be overwhelmed by the number of maps

I am not sure we all need to have the same maps available, after all, since it's only a local file to mod, we can put different maps in our list. It's pretty much up to everyone.

What I would do though, is to try to be more descriptive in the map title, so that people knows where they are going, and to give the XX YY coords in the map's name.

Looking at the battle editor, I did not get the feeling that 30 150, 31 150, 32 150 were identical. They share identical features, such as model used, type of vegetations, etc, but positions of hills, etc are different, making them different maps.
But not all of them are suitable for MPs. A topic dedicated to MP map "good spots" would be very interesting indeed!

Regarding special locations; I had a look at special locations, I am not sure it works. At least in the battle editor, if you look at pyramid location, you won't find the pyramid there. I'll check that in MP...
It is possible with the battle editor to add in a map all the specials... but that might be a different kind of mod...

Louis,

[Iluvatar]

Here is a question that someone may be able to answer for me.

In editing maps I have not found a way to allow choice of units in MP. Perhaps someone can help me. The only thing I have been able to do is to create aklliances and pre-choose the units.

How do you go about allowing uncensored unit selection? And is there a way yto eliminate the need for alliances, so that any faction can play with another in MP?

Did I miss something obvious somewhere?

Sry if this is a stupid question.

[Iluvatar]

I am trying to create unique maps, not the ones available in SP.

[Iluvatar]

If you can help, please see my 2 previous posts. :)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

To allow "real custom maps" for MP, you need to press F1, and tick allow maps for MP.

Unrelated note, although it would be a good topic for custom map: if in the custom location I pick a square located on a wonder, the wonder is not present on the battle map.

So, for a battles next to the Pyramid, custom maps seem to be the way to go.

Louis,

[Iluvatar]

Thx Louis I will give that a try.

Hail FF!!!

[Cheetah]

Brilliant! Bloody brilliant!!!! Nice found Ael!

I suggest a system where we use the existing maps as seeds for new maps.

For example we take Gaellic countryside and add or substract one from its coordinates. This way you have a set of new maps (8) that are very similar but not identical to the original one.

Advantages of the system:

• Easy to use, no need to struggle with new names, just call them „Gaellic countryside+1+0”, „Gaellic countryside+0+1”, „Gaellic countryside+1+1”, „Gaellic countryside-1+0”etc according to the coordinates you have changed.

• Intuitve: everyone familiar with Gaellic countryside, so everyone will know what to expect if you host one of these maps.

• Easy to expand: if you need more maps, just add the next circle „Gaellic countryside+0+2”, „Gaellic countryside+1+2”, etc.

The interesting task IMO would be to find new seeds. For example one finds that the maps of Pannonia are perfect for MP, then he picks a central tile and names it „Pannonian countryside” (or whatever) and can create a new set of maps using the above method. What he needs to do is to post the coordinates and the name here, in order to avoid confusion. So, lets say „I named tile with coordinates x,y as Pannonian countryside”.

This can be awesome for tourneis as well, tourney organisers need not specify the exact map, just say that the battle has to be fought on one of the Gaellic countryside maps, etc.

[Cheetah]

I just did what I described above, created a set of Gallic countryside maps. It works fine! You can see the "old" Gallic countryside to the north, south, ect depending on your location.

I also did some test how this coordinate system works:

1_1 desert
212_1 some funny rocky desert near a seashore
1_126 sea!
212_126 some steppe like tearrain with few trees and small valleys

so, I thought it is a simpe

x: east to west
y: south to north

system. I started to map the existing maps according this system. Got some interesting result, some maps does not seem to fit at all. Most notably:

prippet marshes
italian lowland
gallic countryside
cappadocian forest
river jordan
british grassland

Could the devs for example just pick a map outside britain and call it british grassland ?

Anyway, I started to look for new interesting seeds

Germanic Forest +15-25: looks promising, rolling hills practically without forest, some kind of subalpine climate (you can see the alps!)

Germanic forest +20-30: looks even more promising, rolling hills with few forest, it should be somewhere around Pannonia, you can still see the Alps on the horizon.

[Cheetah]

only the coordinates of the existing maps from the custom_location.txt file:

custom_location British Grassland
{
location 123 96

custom_location Gallic Countryside
{
location 161 112

custom_location Gallic Countryside +1+0
{
location 162 112

custom_location Italian Lowland
{
location 48 126

custom_location Sahara Desert
{
location 20 7

custom_location Libyan Plains
{
location 175 8

custom_location Arabian Dunes
{
location 224 47

custom_location Germanic Forest
{
location 90 127

custom_location Germanic Forest+15-25 -subalpine
{
location 105 102

custom_location Germanic Forest+20-30
{
location 110 97


custom_location Nordic Woodland
{
location 74 117

custom_location Cappadocian Forest
{
location 93 116

custom_location Prippet Marshes
{
location 5 62

custom_location Sierra Nevada
{
location 83 37

custom_location Scottish Highland
{
location 118 122

custom_location Armenian Mountains
{
location 189 59

custom_location Pontic Peaks
{
location 204 59

custom_location Alpine Valley
{
location 96 96

custom_location Tuscan Bay
{
location 87 78

custom_location Greek Shore
{
location 103 43

custom_location African Coast
{
location 86 27

custom_location Moon River
{
location 21 71

custom_location River Jordan
{
location 172 118

custom_location Nile Bridge
{
location 212 53

[Cheetah]

two more ideas:

1, Lets not go further than the 3rd circle of the old map when naming new maps (i.e. Gallic countryside +3+3). This way the maps in that given map set will be still similar in terrain and texture; there will be 49 maps in a map set (including the original); and -given that there are more than 20.000 maps!!- there can be roughly 400 map sets!!!!!

2, Lets not create overlapping map sets. So given the above idea there should be 6 maps between the old seed and the new seed. So for example, old seed: 10_10, then the nearest new seed: 10_17, or 10_3, 17_10, or 3_10, or any combination of these. In other words the new seed should be on the 7th circle counting from the old map.

[Iluvatar]

I guess at this point all we can really do is mess with maps in these ways. I have tried to create Custom maps and it doesnt seem to allow yuo to allow for full selection of factions in MP.

Perhaps we can extract these single player maps and somehow modify them........

[Cheetah]

Etna: 105_47 you will find yourself south of the volcano
Channel of Messina: 109_51 you will yourself on the mainland
British channel: 45_125 you will find yourself on the British island, channel to the south

I have tried to find cliffs of Dover but I gave up on it, though I have found some weird maps:
70_123 barren land, like a big rock, or the surface of the moon Is this England? Home of CA?
67_123 same type of barren land a river flowing north to south

Also it seems that if one of the deployment zones is ok but the other is in sea it will froze on the deployment screen. At least it got frozen for me on 58_124 and on 59_124.

[Aelwyn]

interesting finds cheetah. i can't actually load maps because of the vid card but the best thing is not everyone needs to have the same maps enabled. everyone can have different ones, so depending upon the host, you could be playing any number of maps, and the system will find the map off your hard drive, so no need for you to do anything.