spearmen with secondary CTD

[Red Harvest]

Curiouser and curioser, there is definitely a bug in this...and I just had a very interesting test which might help Jerome track down the problem. I managed to get it to work ONCE. I tried letting the initial clash occur while I was zoomed out and at 3X. This time the triarii retained their spears (which points to some sort of AI battle control problem since in all other tests with the exact same commands they were switching to sword at the "reaction range" without my interference.) This was by accident, as the "pause" button didn't work the first time--common refrain, I know. When I zoomed in at 1x they were fighting with spears. So I ALT attacked and they switched to swords and fought with no trouble. So I started changing graphics options 1 by 1 while zoomed in until I had everything enabled and all was going well. They were still fighting and there was no sight of trouble. So then I decided to test the transition. I had them switch back to swords by giving another simple attack command. They started switching weapons...and I was rapidly greeted by black screen, CTD, and the same message as before.

A very useful test I think, and all thanks to the stuck pause button...

I have a 9800 Pro by the way.

[Legionario]

I'm afraid it's not due to hardware problems ( apart that I never seen those Direct X issues) I have tested it on both machines here,one has a N'vidia 5200,the other has an ATI 9600 so different set of drivers...no way......
as soon as I move them or order to attack they CTD,sometimes it takes 20 seconds, other times, little more or little less,but it's definitely going to be a CTD...

[Legionario]

We posted in contemporary,as I said in one of my previous posts,if let them stand still and front the attack,they fight with no problems (don't know how long they will...anyway) but as soon as I give them a command...CTD

[khelvan]

Has anyone been able to get this to work consistently?

[Legionario]

It's up to CA...if they don't have the will to resolve this....
I'm afraid it's gonna be this way....

[khelvan]

Duke John said he was able to get it to work. Can you do it consistently, DJ?

[blindfaithnogod]

i got it to work with the existing hoplite models. by just deleting the phalanx option. yet it did not work with new models.

[Duke John]

It worked for me with the edited greek phalanx. I'll probably want to do this for Sengoku Jidai, so I need it to work with custom models too. I have yet to test it.

[Legionario]

With 1.1 or 1.2 patch ?

[Red Harvest]

It worked for me with the edited greek phalanx. I'll probably want to do this for Sengoku Jidai, so I need it to work with custom models too. I have yet to test it.

You might want to try this with the triarii. That was what Jerome said he used, so that is what I copied and tried. I'll have to try one of the other phalanx units and retest.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Any late developments about this issue? How has testing progressed? Reproducible results?

[Legionario]

It does not work,this is the only certain thing as now,and CA does not look interested.....of all the people I know,and whom I suggested tries with most all Spearmen units,just to have comparisons...no one got it to work....I tried a lot of them and they CTD always......it's a CA isuue....we cannot do nothing as now....

[Myrddraal]

But some people have got it to work with the greek phalanx. Jerome posted and said that it is possible. This is very odd.

[Legionario]

If you read back the thread you'll find that Jerome said it was possible with Triarii,while DJ said he achieved that with Greek phalanx;
I was not able to make it work with either,now apart from changin' the skeletons and stats,there's nothing different from one's RTW and the others,
so I'm asking ...how many have been able to make it work...and with wich ones?
'Till now it seems only DJ reported a success...I say this again, I've tried with four different PCs of mine,and various friends,with all the patches,and it does not work... .....try yourself and see what happen...

[blindfaithnogod]

well i just tried modifying the triarii to carry a secondary weapon. and its a no go. still got CTD. which is wierd since i got it to work with the hoplites.

[Dimitri]

I've tested this fairly expensively, and wrote a thorough post describing my results but lost it all trying to submit. Here then, are my conclusions in brief:

I've tested using triarii, giving them secondary swords. The game won't crash if you just let them fight on their own without giving orders, or if you use alt-attack to fight just with swords. The game will crash when they switch from swords to spears, but not the other way around, and seemingly only if you order them to perform a standard attack, alt-attack ignores the spears all together and so causes no problems.

I tried using a variety of animations, and the only animation that acted differently was fs_javeline, though it did eventually crash when I tried switching from swords to spears while they were in combat. Otherwise there were no obvious links between animations and the crashing.

I then tried swapping the swords and spears around (primary-sword, secondary-spear), and this method seemed much more stable. If ordered to attack, they would charge with spears and then switch to swords for combat, as they fought they would eventually switch back to spears on an individual basis, resulting in a mix of swords and spears being used at once, though ultimately they all switched to spears. The game only crashed if I ordered an alt-attack while they were already fighting with their swords.

Interestingly, when I tried using swords as both their primary and secondary weapons, I got the same results, a crash only if I tried switching to secondary while engaged. The game just doesn't seem to like having two melee weapons at once.

[Red Harvest]

Dimitri-

I think what you describe fits with what I saw. There is something broken in the switching.

[Dimitri]

So any word from on high on what the problem here can be?

[Red Harvest]

So any word from on high on what the problem here can be?

Not that I am aware of. Jerome might not have any time to spend on it...or he might have discovered something...but that might mean waiting for the Xpack, or the off chance that there is a 1.3 patch, or he might be looking for something else to more fully answer it. Hopefully, this discussion will prove useful to CA as that should be beneficial to all.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, guys a reply from JeromeGrasdyke would be excellent but he seems to have gone silent...

In the meantime, this might sound stupid but, maybe, this thread should be pinned. It's an important and puzzling matter, and it would save many people time and questions...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

To the moderators: Thanks for pinning this...

[Legionario]

Since it works only with phalanxes units,and they have something wich is hardcoded ( dedicated animations etc..etc..) this may be where the problem lies.... ....in fact when assigning a spearman skeleton and then a secondary,without the phalanx formation,it CTDs as soon as they are ordered to attack e.g. switching to secondary set of animations.
. ...........

[Epistolary Richard]

Thanks to LAca, for this:

The unit has sper for primary and sword for secondary weapon... I managed to get it work by using only the spearmen skeleton for both weapons ( using fs_spearman, fs_swordsman crashes the game right after the unit charges). I tested it and works well (excepting that the sword animations are only those of thrusting, not the slashing ones).

The thing i dont like is the fact that the unit charges with the swords and then it switches to spears (despite the fact that the spear has higher charge bonus). It seems that the ai charges with the secondary weapon if u order to charge with the primary then switches to primary (if u order alt+attack, it doesnt switch to primary). Its not that big of a problem, but can this behaviour be changed somehow?
...
type numidian_triarii
skeleton fs_spearman, fs_spearman ; combat spear
indiv_range 40
texture numidia, data/models_unit/textures/numidian_triarii
model_flexi_m data/models_unit/numidian_triarii.cas, 8
model_flexi_m data/models_unit/numidian_triarii.cas, 15
model_flexi data/models_unit/numidian_triarii_lp.cas, 30
model_flexi data/models_unit/numidian_triarii_very_lp.cas, 40
model_flexi data/models_unit/numidian_triarii_very_lp.cas, max
model_sprite 60.0
model_tri 400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

To see the full post see here.

[LAca]

Hmm. I didnt know this thing was that big of an issue... It took me a few hours to figure it out...
I assumed if cavalry can have spears and swords, why cant the infantry? I searched the forums but i couldnt find anything conclusive on this matter. I started by changing in the export_descr_unit.txt file the infantry rypes, swapping the primary and secondary weapons, but didnt work. Then i thought that maybe the problem is with the skeleton changing, cause i saw that prior the ctd the unit changes weapons a few times and then the game crashes. Using a single skeleton once still crashes the game, but twice, for each weapon, it seems to work. The skeleton, as i see it, points to the animations, the game really doesnt care what the guy holds in his hands (doesnt know if it has spear or sword, only that the respective weapon has bonuses (mount_effect), is thrown and the like). Seems that if u specify spear in the stat_pri_attr line (phalanx unit style) it adds anti cav bonuses (i tested against horses, i cant say if has against chariots, camels) to the respective weapon - i read somewhere that anti cavalry bonuses may be "inherited" by secondary weapons aswell.

If im wrong, somebody correct me please, i say what i think about the game mechanics, i read little about these things, and most things i write here observed myself by trial and error.

[Suraknar]

Alright,

I have tryed this myself too, and I have to repport that it does CDT.

In 10 tries it only worked once... I was able to Switch the weapons during the melee back and forth too. Then the enemy unit routed..but they regrooped, and so I ordered my unit to attack them again and at that engagement it CDTed...

So this was not an overall success either in reality, and it may have just been a coincidence, as both units were marching to one another and I think my unit got charged first before it could charge...

Consistent with the rest of the thread here, if you leave em defend it will not CDT.

In my case it was the Greek Heavy Peltasts, I first converted them in to a Phalanx with Spear unit, that worked like a charm.

Then removed Spear pri_attr and Phalanx formation, leaving them as fs_spearman, fs_swordsman and it CDTed.

I read about the fs_spearman, fs_spearman solution, I just wanted to try different combination of the actual fs_spearman, fs_swordsman without phalanx.

I even tryed changing weapon types, instead of Simple put blade, also tryed giving one weapon other attributes like body_piercing...same results all over...CDT...

...when ordered to charge with primary they do switch to secondary weapon in the charging phase, then switch back to the primary once engaged, the CDT follows shortly after...

I believe this to be something in the engine all together, the game was just not made to use two melee weapons, the fact that they switch to secondary for the charge even if they were ordered to charge with primary is proving this.

If we observe the behavior of a normal Pelatast unit or velite or archer, when they are ordered to primary attack the game will evaluate availability of ammunition, and use the secondary weapon to perform the charge, NOT ex[pecting this unit to switch back to their Bows or primary Ranged attack while they are already engaged, however by giving the unit two melee weapons, we force the game to make that switch and that causes the CDT...from what I can observe.

It is therefore an issue with how the code is being run...processing issue (within my limited understand of coding), all other factors being properly set up.

As such, if we use fs_spearman, fs_spearman, even if the graphics change to between primary/secondary weapon, in terms of processing there is no exception being made as the game expects fs_spearman, and it gets fs_spearman...

In that Logic we could expect it to work also with fs_swordsman, fs_swordsman...

Which could open some possibilities here...

If we were to make for instance a fs_maceman animation, and have a unit with both Maces and Short Swords, it would work fine and these units have have both a melee attack with blunt and a melee attack with piarcing weapons...

Provided that we put fs_maceman, fs_maceman...