In beta?

[Duke John]

Lets look beyond all the whining and counter-whining. You cannot deny that alof of M:TW players have left the forums and that the nature of posts have changed.

You can then either think that M:TW players were just a bunch of whiners, or that there might indeed be something wrong with R:TW.
My guess is that R:TW has moved the TW series into a different category and M:TW players realize that they do not like this. They liked M:TW and R:TW could have been the next step onto the same path.

But with R:TW CA has taken a slightly different path and all the "whining/complaining" you see here is IMO little more than regret/grievance of M:TW players losing their favorite series.

[MacBeth]

I agree Duke, but by going in a different direction they have changed the TW community.

The boards will be filled with 'Guess my age?' or 'Look at the pic of my uber cohort' and 'Jimmy got owned by Frank' and 'Exterminating it's soooo easy' - well I guess i'll just fade away now.

[hoom]

*insert veteran rant about silly stuff/bugs/historical errors & why STW & MTW were better*

[a_ver_est]

Lets look beyond all the whining and counter-whining. You cannot deny that alof of M:TW players have left the forums and that the nature of posts have changed.

I have played with MTW a lot of hours, I agree that RTW 1.0 wasn't as good as we expected but the last patch changed the game.

But what are these major differences that you found that makes the game worse? for me there are only two:

- game speed, now is faster, you have less time to maneuver your troops, and let less time to tactics but on the good side you don't have to play those "never end" golden horde/big_stacks battles.

- effects of moral/terrain/weather ... have less impact than in MTW. ok, there isn't any positive view, but sometimes I think than in MTW it had to much impact, facing the golden orde (again) you could easily win with small number of polearms in a forest which IMHO isn't very accurate.

On the other side there are a lot of new features that makes the game better such real damage after the battle, no teletransport armies, better diplomacy, factions have very different sets of units, sieges battles, ...

MTW has had several problems too which only where solved after the patch and expansion pack ... and if you really want a challange game you need a good mod.

Does we forget those full peasant armies ? or factions declaring the war to every one? or the ships chain to a province without a port ? ...

RTW hasn't had time enough to reach its golden age and probably never will be perfect but now I think that is funny to play at least for me.

I am sorry if my lack of english knowledge make the post difficult to understood.

[Butcher]

You cannot deny that alof of M:TW players have left the forums and that the nature of posts have changed.

Maybe, but a lot (like me) have joined the .org because of RTW. As it is a game of more depth and complexity I have found that I need more info and opinion than I ever did on MTW.
And I'll leave you with this:
Italians attack my ship after 100yrs of peace, causing my factionleader to be cut off. My entire empire goes into revolt because of this one action, resulting in lots of tedious uber-stack rebel killing.
Great.

[SpencerH]

This discussion is really about two seperate issues.

First there is the growing tendency for some game designers/publishers (including CA/activision) to release games before they are ready (ie beta products). We saw it with CIV3 and now we have exactly the same thing with RTW. Of course there will be bugs with any program but how can anyone justify a product that ships where a number of major games elements such as fighters for civ3 and protectorates for RTW simply dont work at all. One has to ask whether any beta testing occurred at all and if so were any changes made prior to shipping? Surely someone must have noticed the glaring errors in the 1.0 game! Ask yourself why 1.0 was shipped in that condition. Loyal fans will pay for a quality product but I cant see many paying for expansions 'sight unseen'.


The second issue is disappointment with the direction that RTW has taken with respect to the tactical aspects of the game. There are many of us that dislike the changes but it's a business decision to bring in RTS players. Hopefully, we'll find other games that suit us better. So far I cant see myself playing more than 1 campaign even with 1.2. I just wish that CA had allowed us to mod more aspects of the game instead of hard-coding many of the points that the 'old-timers' dislike.

[Paul Peru]

Loyal fans will pay for a quality product but I cant see many paying for expansions 'sight unseen'.

That's right, and CA/Activision had better make a note of that.
I'll be watching this space before I buy, no preorder this time.

[caesar44]

let me understand
you are saying that ca had hard coded items in the game to limit moders ?
from their point of view - ok

[FURRY_BOOTS]

let me understand
you are saying that ca had hard coded items in the game to limit moders ?
from their point of view - ok

CA made a mistake there then!, i mean take a look at the Morrowind community, how long ago was that game released & yet people are still playing it, this is mainly because of the 1000s of good mods that are out there,bethseda gave a good construction set along with the game, but its those mods that have kept people in the game for years, & as a result the community is buzzing about new game oblivion(cant wait)
MTW xl 2.0 was an excellent if not the best tw mod, same with the total realism guys alot of good work, theve kept me in the game for a while,
come on CA, a little more modder friendly please

[SpencerH]

let me understand
you are saying that ca had hard coded items in the game to limit moders ?
from their point of view - ok

For example, we can alter the 'friction' of different terrain to slow down every unit, but we cant change that inf units run like modern olympic athletes. Personally, I dont understand why CA did that, it seems pretty short sighted. If they hadnt hard coded so many items we could have at least built mods to satisfy everyone.

[screwtype]

take a look at the Morrowind community

Goodness me, you mean there is actually a Morrowind community? I can hardly believe it. I consigned that game to the shelf after about a week.

You can buy a copy of it at my local store now for $5.

[A.Saturnus]

MTW on 1.0 was practically unplayable due to CTD, at least for me. RTW is much better in that way. It is true that there were way to much bugs in RTW 1.0, but for complex products like this game, I guess it´s hopeless to expect it being tested as thoroughly as required.

What I reject is the claim that "all the MTW veterans don´t like the game". I´ve played thousands of hours MTW and I enjoy RTW a lot. From the vocal group of critics, we cannot infer anything. That´s not to say that CA didn´t make design decisions I don´t like. The kill speed for one is too high. This seriously affects the feeling of battles. It´s unfortunate that CA made this decision, but it´s their game, no one forced me to buy it. It should not be forgotten that RTW does a lot things very much better than MTW.

[Colovion]

That's right, and CA/Activision had better make a note of that.
I'll be watching this space before I buy, no preorder this time.

Same.

I'd rather spend money for the EB mod than the XP because I'm pretty sure that the XP isn't going to change the pace of the game and make the game actually Strategical.

This is true:

MTW + STW Had more strategy/tactics than your average Real Time Strategy Game.

RTW has worse strategy/tactics than your average Real Time Strategy Game.

Not to say that Rome doesn't have a load of potential, but potential means fuckall if it isn't harnessed - and as of yet RTW has masses of unharnessed potential... whose job is it to harness taht potential? partly the modders after teh game is released - but the majority of the game's features and abilities should be fleshed out in the initial release.

In it's current state RTW barely deserves to be called a Strategy game.

[Turbo]

The initial release was definately a beta and poorly playtested at that. I have trouble getting excited about a patch that fixed a lot of broken features that should have been fixed to begin with.

CA tried to broaden the appeal of RTW to a larger audience and in doing so turned their back on the core base. The tactical battles which used to be the centerpiece of the series are over in a couple of minutes and are little more than a clickfest. I was really disappointed that this wasn't addressed in the patch.

CA may have taken several steps forwards with RTW, but in my opinion it took a big step back with these arcade style battles.

[Spino]

CA made a mistake there then!, i mean take a look at the Morrowind community, how long ago was that game released & yet people are still playing it, this is mainly because of the 1000s of good mods that are out there,bethseda gave a good construction set along with the game, but its those mods that have kept people in the game for years, & as a result the community is buzzing about new game oblivion(cant wait)
MTW xl 2.0 was an excellent if not the best tw mod, same with the total realism guys alot of good work, theve kept me in the game for a while,
come on CA, a little more modder friendly please

Ah, Morrowind. The perfect example of an incredibly large, complex and successful game that was supported to the fullest by the developer and publisher. Activison seems to have selectively ignored the phenomenal success and lessons learned from Morrowind (or for that matter, Starcraft, Diablo or Half Life). Morrowind on its own or combined with its expansion packs is a MASSIVE and incredibly, complicated game that was greenlit for patches numerous times by Bethesda. Furthermore said patches were released independently of the the expansion packs, meaning you didn't have to fork over $20-30 just to get bug fixes and additional tweaks for the original. I jumped on the Morrowind bandwagon from the beginning and was amazed as the support for the game kept on coming as the months passed. Bethesda made good by listening to the Morrowind community and allowed the game to be patched numerous times. The same could be said about Bioware and Atari regarding Neverwinter Nights. However it is clear Activision simply does not give a crap about Rome and the TW community beyond their two patch agreement with CA.

Best of all was the jaw dropping moddability of Morrowind thanks to the inclusion of the developer's incredibly powerful editing tools. This alone made Morrowind the most moddable game I've ever seen. Users could not only edit the game to their hearts content but they even fixed a surprising number of bugs before Bethesda patched them! The amount of user made mods for Morrowind is simply astounding, I wonder just how many man hours went into creating all of them! Given all the factors I've mentioned (as well as the fact that Morrowind was a great game) I could not be more enthusiastic about Morrowind's sequel, Oblivion.

I refuse to place the blame for RTW's shortcomings squarely on CA's shoulders. Not that CA isn't somewhat responsible for that which we find disappointing about RTW but let's face it, they're severely constricted in what they can do to support the TW community based on their contractual agreement with Activision. The die was cast once CA signed with Activison and began taking their money to make Rome. The bitter taste in everyone's mouth is how RTW was a perfect case of two steps forward, one step back. Two steps forward; great graphics, sound, completely new strategic map & gameplay, etc. and one giant step back; the tactical battles, which are the core element of the TW games, are tainted by the fact that the tactical AI is actually worse than it was in MTW:VI. Add to the mix the high speed, RTS clickfest nature of the battles, the blatantly ahistorical nature of some of the factions (i.e. Egypt) and the utter lack of alternative campaign goals (i.e. no Glorious Achievements) and the 'one step back' label is completely justified. This bitter taste is made that much worse by the fact that such a massive and complicated game is being limited by the publisher to two patches, one of which was issued immediately after its release solely to address MP problems! To limit a complicated game like this to two patches and apply a 'the rest will be fixed in the expansion' attitude is a clear signal from Activision that they simply don't give a f---k about their customers.

I consider myself a TW veteran and I certainly don't dislike Rome. It's a really good game. However, the fact that the tactical AI got the red headed stepchild treatment and is worse than the previous installment really gets my goat and prevents me from giving it higher marks.

[Colovion]

So basically CA needs to get in bed with a new publisher.... or alternatively stick it to the man like VALVe did.

[ToranagaSama]

Although it can be a bit irritating with lots of threads with complains about this or that, it's much better than no complaints at all.

What would've happened if no one had complained after the release of RTW? If everyone would've just said "Great game"...

We would still be playing version 1.0 and CA would've never considered making a patch.

The ONLY way to ever make the game better (aside from modding, if that's possible in a game) is to complain about the game!

So: If there's something you don't like about the game, COMPLAIN...Please!!

I really enjoy the game after the patch, but there's still things i really would like different.
They say they won't release anymore patches, but i very much doubth they'd ignore it if there was a massive "please fix this" feedback.
Don't think it will happen, most people enjoy the game as is and unfortunately thoose who still want a better game isn't heard enough.

My 2 cents...

Tocca is a true Org member.

Agitate, agitate, agitate!

Welcome.

[ToranagaSama]

Listen to the whiney kids calling themselves veterans and everyone else they never saw on these forums noobs, well little nooblets, I started with Civilization yea the original, and also have STW and MTW which this game blows the hell away, MTW is way to repetetive and is easy to get bored with, its the same old thing the entire game, diplomacy sucks, assasination attempts suck, and the AI is way behind the AI of this game.

Read the walkthroughs for each faction in MTW, you can do the same thing every game you play knowing exactly what the AI is going to do, with RTW I have watched the AI switch its tactics and strategies with every new game, so get off your dady's computers and go play some more of your game types like Pack Man or Mario Brothers. Or why dont you cry about it some more so we can laugh at you some more

You define yourself in your comments.

One wonders if you have the requisite communicative skills necessary to articulate yourself.

How is MTW repetitive?

How is MTW's AI **way** behind the RTW's AI?

Please, impress me with your knowledge and expression.

Thanks.

[Yun Dog]

MTW on 1.0 was practically unplayable due to CTD, at least for me. RTW is much better in that way. It is true that there were way to much bugs in RTW 1.0, but for complex products like this game, I guess it´s hopeless to expect it being tested as thoroughly as required.

What I reject is the claim that "all the MTW veterans don´t like the game". It should not be forgotten that RTW does a lot things very much better than MTW.

Amen

This says it all really.

I remember vanilla MTW AI being worse than RTW in fact it didnt improve till MTW:VI was patched - so I think people could show a bit of patience and wait and see.

RTW a BETA - dont make me laugh - I installed the game off the shelf and played it from start to finish - no game stopping bugs. Thats no beta. Doom 3 needed a patch before I could even get past the intro.

RTW is RTW not MTW and its never going to be - this is what is frustrating about the whining - Its a NEW GAME - Im glad its not MTW - MTW was very frustrating and like STW was an unstable game platform which took a lot of machine tweaking to get to run. I was never able to have a single successful LAN with STW or MTW because someone needed to roll back a driver or change OS or machine params etc etc etc. The participants would say - No lets just play something else after serveral almost battles when someone would CTD. I had a LAN where we played 3v3 players vs the AI - it was great - theres 1 point for RTW.

I agree that bugs and game problems should be reported in a constructive and thourough manner. But endless whining threads crying about it not being MTW - or I wanted this or it aint got that, or I did 100 unit tests of greek vs macedonian hopalites and the greek ones are overpowered - PLEASE. There are always going to be exploits and things you would like changed, if the first thing you do before youve even finished the game is start looking for exploits - well I pity you. I prefer to play and enjoy the game - not analyse every little number that has gone into making it.

If some of the community cant get past the fact "it aint MTW" then dont - just leave quietly.

[SpencerH]

So a program is no longer beta if it doesnt cause a CTD. Interesting definition.

[Colovion]

So a program is no longer beta if it doesnt cause a CTD. Interesting definition.

He has a point

but he's using it as a slippery slope argument, so that's no good.

The game is obviously playable, but remember how many people played the open betas for Warcraft and Age of Mythology and hell - almost any large scale release? They played through a technically playable game that had a bunch of unfinished or totally broken features, bugs, huge exploits.... and they fed back those problems to the devs so they would make sure that the Orcs didn't get 10000 Gold at the beginning of a certain campaign. This way when Timmy goes down to the store on release date he doesn't have these problems which he has to deal with.

I really enjoyed the game at the beginning. After a few hours play I posted a huge praise thread for CA. I had begun my campaign as Julii and was loving every minute of learning the game. That's when the fun stopped unforunately - once I learned how to play the game I didn't feel lilke I could improve at all and after playing a half dozen factions I got bored with teh battles; they were no longer epic contests of strategical prowess. The battles were known to be broken during the Demo so I focused on the new parts of the game I hadn't seen.... so that wasn't a large aspect of my concern at the time since I'd already ranted about it earlier and expected a patch to come to fix it.....

/rant

[ToranagaSama]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToranagaSama
You Newbies make me want to throw up!


Erm! Im a veteran of all three and I like the game - and calling someone a Newbie to try and belittle their opinion is a bit pretentious.

I'll have to get back to you all on your individual points later, but just to clear something up regarding Newbies.

First, MY use of the term Newbie is not directly intended to belittle anyone or anyone's opinion. The term Newbie is relatively self-defined, as in New and Unknowing. It is in this specific manner that I use the term.

If you find the term as applied to you belittling, then that's your problem--Not Mine! I call them as I see them.

Second, lets define further, the term Veteran does not apply to everyone who happened to purchase Shogun way back when, but to one who is a Veteran of THIS Forum, the Org. A long time member of the Forum, usually from the Shogun and/or Pre-Shogun days, who has distinguished himself by demonstrating his knowledge of and experience with the Total War series.

Got it? The majority of you are not Veterans, but are Newbies to the Total War series. Even if you bought Shogun on Day 1, the fact does give one some credence, but doesn't necessarily mark you as a Veteran. Again, Knowledge and Experience that what counts.

---

Yunus Dogus, you claim to be a Veteran, yet I don't know you from squat.

Quote:
Wrong. We simply want it to be BETTER than STW/MTW. It ain't!


Exactly. That's my point.

I don't get your point, care to explain.

In any case, the rest of your responses are too juvenile for me to respond further, enjoy.

---

Can someone answer these questions for me:

Why is it that you find being called a Newbie and/or Non-Veteran belittling? I don't get it. If you're new to a Form and/or Game, you're a Newbie, what's the problem?

If someone has more knowledge and experience than you, then they're a Veteran and you're not. What's the problem.

---

I do realize that my style of play is different, so I won't bother arguing that point; there's no way I can prove to you that I do use tactics, just as there's no way that you can prove to me the game is unplayable.

You know, I don't think I seen a single thread of someone describing their "style of play" re RTW. I'd love to hear it.

Regarding Tactics, simply explain what you do, simple. Be as elaborate in your description as you wish.

Do you use any particular sort of formation?

THIS is the kind of stuff that USED to PRIMARILY be discussed around here....

---

See its the comments like these that I don't like. Perhaps its unplayable to you, but I have played the game through unmodified several times. So have the thousands of what you would call 'noobs' over at the .com forums. It's NOT unplayable; can't you see that other people are playing it. But alas, this is an opinion so no use arguing...

But you see, I'm sure you can tell ;) , its precisely the sort of comments that your original post represented that I don't like. Frankly, my dislike is probably more vehement than your own.

The fact that other people, as you say, are playing it doesn't really account for much. I don't mean this as any sort of insult, but the frank fact is lots of people are doing lots of things. Lots of people are playing The Sims too. By the reasoning you present (the number of people doing a thing), I should respect and be playing The Sims, or, in fact doing EVERYTHING everyone else is doing. I don't put much value in what everyone else is doing....

For that matter, I'm NOT the only one who considers the game unplayable. The fact of the matter is I STOPPED playing the game. Why?:

1) BATTLES: Number one reason is that Units/Lines won't Hold, not matter what you do, and a player has absolutely NO idea WHY a Line crumbled; can't point specifically to a Unit or Units as to the cause. There is NO WAY to evaluate. Replays *would* help, but really isn't the solution.

2) Campaign Map: I tired rather quickly of the number of, as well as the fact of, fighting inumberable MEANINGLESS battles. Battles that serve NO PURPOSE in furthering the Campaign. Fight them, Don't fight them; Win them, Lose them----NO EFFECT! What's the point?

Too Many, Too Meaningless.

3) What's the point of beating up on Headless Armies????? There's NO challenge in this----WHATSOEVER.

4) Autorresolve is UNUSEABLE. Absolutely Unsuseable. I got to the point where I said screw the battles. I'll try and salvage some value from the game---personally, I always found the Campaign Map more intriuiging anyway. I'll concentrate on the Map and Auto the battles, but nooooooo. Autoresovel is a JOKE!

Not only is the Battle AI WORSE than STW and MTW, but so is Auto-resolve. Unfukinblievable.

5) AI Controlled Armies, you know when your General joins you on the field and proceeds to act like a idiot no only with himself but with his entire army.

I still remember the last time I played the game, the last straw for me. I had manuevered on the Strat Map two armies into a perfect L shaped ambush of the AI. Isn't this what the new 3D map was made for?

Mind you this is on VH/VH, and after MANY turns and time---Got em! Significant game moment.

Blink! I'm on the Battle Map. I've got control of one army and the AI my other. I'm facing the AI enemey head on, and my AI army is advancing on the Enemy right. What happens? Rather than waiting and responding to what I do, the AI General advances WAY ahead of his army and charges ahead; his Army is coming on as quick as they can. (STOP, you morons!)

The Enemey AI splits his army and sends part straight at my AI General with the commensurate results. General running for his life.

[You know, for the first I see, where to some degree I must reproach myself just a bit. YES, you all are kinda right the AI does do some interesting things. It is kinda cool the way the AI *split* its army in response to the circumstance!! Despite all that, back to the battle:]

I have to advance my army as quick as I can upon the Enemey, with NO forumation, NO planing and NO setup!!!! I just gotta charge on, SLAM my troops in some hope of quickly whiping them out, in order tha I can save my other, AI controlled army.

THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT TO DO NOR INTENDED TO DO.

There is NO skill involved in this battle

So what happened? The AI general kept heading for the hills; the AI army got killed; my controlled army got creamed cause they did an all out charge. TWO armies virtually whiped out---through NO fault of my own. I NEVER had control of that battle as the AI did whatever it wanted. Unfukinbelievable!

What----is the point of playing this game?

Now, I don't say this to pump myself up, but just to state facts. I have extreme knowledge of the TW games, and extreme battle skills. Yet, NONE of it was worth a damn---cause I never got to use ANY OF IT.

So, what's the point?


----

NOW, CA has deemed us with a patch, that allows for reinforcements to be dripped onto the field, ala Shogun and Medieval. Thank goodness.

To all those for whom their forum experience is being ruined, do you think this change would have been implemented WITHOUT comment from the Forum? If all the posts had been about all the *positive* aspects? Ohhh, look at the pretty graphics....

Personally, I stopped, some time ago, buying games where there is no Developer support and no Developer communication with the community. If they don't respond to my whines, then I don't buy their games. Simple as that.

In the Shogun days and mid-way thru the Medieval days we had direct contact and communication with the Developers. Newsgroup, Forum, Email. Now, unless you're a VETERAN you wouldn't know anything about it would you. NOPE!

Unfortunately, the Patch doesn't fully address my main concerns, so unless Auto-resolve has been fixed, the game is still going to be unplayable, unmodded.

----

Now, if you find it playable, like I said, people, a LOT of people, play The Sims too....

[MacBeth]

I know this vet thing can be confusing - the admin at .com told me that 'As a TW vet I should know better......' when banning me from his boards. I took it as a complement.

[SpencerH]

I'll have to get back to you all on your individual points later, but just to clear something up regarding Newbies.

First, MY use of the term Newbie is not directly intended to belittle anyone or anyone's opinion. The term Newbie is relatively self-defined, as in New and Unknowing. It is in this specific manner that I use the term.

While 'newbie' may be used descriptively ie "New and Unknowing", you know that it's most often used as a pejorative. As you've said one can be a newbie to this forum, a newbie to the game, or both. What difference does it make though? Newbies that like RTW (as is) are as entitled to their opinion as those, such as us, who strongly dislike the disappearance of tactics from the current game. What purpose is served by labelling someones comments as 'newbie'? Isn't it better to simply refute them and provide evidence so support your position? Your comment "You Newbies make me want to throw up!" is not likely to be taken as "not directly intended to belittle anyone or anyone's opinion" whether that's your intent or not. Personally, I never use 'newbie' except to someone who is clearly not a newbie so there is no misinterpretation of my intent.

I agree that we have to make our opinions known. At poly my sig in support of RTW (as the replacement for civ) triggered comments from the civ fanboys about my sanity (I haven't had any wrt the revised version-similar to my .org sig). Its possible that my .org sig helped trigger this thread (at least I hope so). If we don't voice our displeasure with the direction that RTW has taken then we can be assured that nothing will change.

[fret]

@ToranagaSama - Im a n00b, to this forum.

As a n00b, Im more than up for a discussion with board veterans on any subject relating to Video Games, their design, production, distribution, history, hardware, collectability, from 1951 to the present day, any title, any system, any genre, any hardware mod, any homebrew effort, anything relating to the vast subject.

Im not interested in arguments / flame wars. I just want to see how you will justify me as New and uninformed (to anything other than this forum) based on the fact you dont know me?

[Slyspy]

I too have been sorely disappointed by RTW, believing it to be a waste of potential and a step backwards for the series. However I for one do not need an ally like ToranagaSama to "champion" the cause using a combination of sophistry and arogance thank you very much.

[ToranagaSama]

Lets look beyond all the whining and counter-whining. You cannot deny that alof of M:TW players have left the forums and that the nature of posts have changed.

So, I'm not alone in my thoughts....

The nature of this place is changing and it shouldn't be. Something needs to be done. When RTW first came out, I asked Tosa for a Veterans only forum, but he shot that down (I suppose mine wasn't the first request?).

I feel as if someone has walked into MY house; sat down on MY sofa; started watching MY TV; went into MY fridge and started eating MY food; then, turned and looked at me and said: "Who are are you and what are you doing here?"

[Rant]
Example:

Originally Posted by Yunus Dogus
If some of the community cant get past the fact "it aint MTW" then dont - just leave quietly.

Somebody TELL me! Who is this guy? What has he contributed? To the Forum? To the Game?

WHO are these people and where do they get their attitudes?

...or I did 100 unit tests of greek vs macedonian hopalites and the greek ones are overpowered - PLEASE. There are always going to be exploits and things you would like changed, if the first thing you do before youve even finished the game is start looking for exploits - well I pity you. I prefer to play and enjoy the game - not analyse every little number that has gone into making it.....

Do you Veterans and anybody else with eyes see? This guy does not have an ORG mentality. Should he have been let out of the EH? There's a certain cluelessness here. Dude don't you realize it? You're a .COMer.

Should people new to the game, new to the forum, be allowed to do this? IMUHO, they are disruptive to the general business this forum has ALWAYS been about. Come on guys, you know what the Org was about back in the pre-Shogun days, and what it was in the post-Shogun days. Read his quote, do you think this guy, and those with similar attitudes, would've even stuck around, let alone be a contributor?

Think about it. Some of the things the "New People" say just boils my blood!! Did the Veterans of this Forum and Game go away because the game sucked; or was it because the Newbies sucked? Something to ponder and discuss.

Think MORE about it. Why did CA not find it necessary to address the Battle Speed issues? Could it have been because there wasn't a place where they could engage with the most knowledegable and experience players. Those would could comprehend the issues, disscuss them INTELLIGENTLY and KNOWLEGEDABLY, seek and discover SOLUTIONS????

This process, which has occurred here at the Org many times, did not happen. Rather, it was just one big NON-PRODUCTIVE fight!

I believe an additional policy s/b instituted in the Entrance Hall and throughout the forum.

People shouldn't be allowed to come into one's HOME and start acting liking they own the place.

If it wasn't for the true Veterans, this place wouldn't be here and the game would have died a LONG time ago.

Veterans ONLY Forum, pleaseeeee. Where *we* can do what we've always done, and CA can have immediate access to *our* view, as well as the view of the unwashed masses.

The forum would function similarly to the EH, except that prespective members would need to demonstrate a certain *Want*. Want to Enjoy, Examine, Experience, Everything about the game on an Elevated level. The 5 Es.

You could call it the Grognard forum to make it more palatable, for Grognards and Grognard wannabes. Not everybody wants or is interested in being a Grognard, a Wargammer, not everyone RESPECTS or has interest in such things.

Want to see an Example of a need for such a place? Look at the TWCenter and Total Realism. What I'm talking about is a Forum in some ways equivalent to the TWCenter, but more Org-like.

Such a place would lower the blood pressure and decrease the clashes....
Serve as a Filter for CA, and a place of Sanctury for *US*.

Remember the SPers vs. MPer battles? Of course you do. The Org worked that out quite nicely. Same thing could happen again.

Help, please.

[Rant Over]

You can then either think that M:TW players were just a bunch of whiners, or that there might indeed be something wrong with R:TW.

Nah... We're just a bunch of whinners who don't have a clue what we're talking about.

My guess is that R:TW has moved the TW series into a different category and M:TW players realize that they do not like this. They liked M:TW and R:TW could have been the next step onto the same path.

Evolution NOT Revolution!

But with R:TW CA has taken a slightly different path and all the "whining/complaining" you see here is IMO little more than regret/grievance of M:TW players losing their favorite series.

...and betrayal and deception....

Thank you for your post, and how about having a talk with Tosa re the above.

[hrvojej]

For me, RTW is a step forward with regard to the stratmap. I just have to remember the "all buildings in a province destroyed once you lost a battle even though you retreated to the castle" feature in early MTW, and it's great. There's even a diplomacy implemented in RTW, even though it's in its infant state (which I surprisingly end up not using after all; what's the point when there are no consequences, say to break an alliance). City management is nice, continuous strat-to-tactical map superb, etc. So, I'm not a grognard who is against progress.

However, battles are just a huge step back. Thery have regressed almost as much as stratmap has progressed. I never played "arcade battles" (switching off ammo, morale, etc.) in MTW, but I guess this is how they must have been played out. And no, it's not my skill resulting from me playing TW games for months; I played a few MTW battles for comparison, and they are much more involved. If this was a conscious marketing decision to attract more casual gamers (and not e.g. adjustment period to 3D), I am disappointed, primarily at the shortsightedness of such business strategy. That audience would still buy the game because of all the glitzy glossy graphics etc., and throw it on a shelf after a week, just like they did now, regardless of how involved the battles were. So, all the prerequisites to gain wider audience were already there just through the production values. Why it was necessary to cut down on the other values, because of which the TW games were the only ones I didn't buy from the bargain bin, is however beyond me.

ps.
I actually bought RTW only around christmas, after an episode with the VI patch. I guess I still bought it too early though. It would seem that the next titles are going to come from the bargain bin after all.

[frogbeastegg]

Come on guys, you know what the Org was about back in the pre-Shogun days, and what it was in the post-Shogun days.

What the org is about? I think it was summed up very well by KukriKhan in another topic: "Truth, honour, fun." This topic contains precious little of the last two and the first is buried under the rather poisonous feeling atmosphere.

[Catiline]

This thread is closed.

Some of you may have read what I am about to quote before. if you haven't read it now, and pay attwention this time.

We will have no elitism here. We will have no special veterans forum. We will have no hierarchy based on whether your name is known enough or you've won a lot online. I will not tolerate as moderator to receive emails from long term members who lurk but rarely post complaining about the behaviour of supposedly senior and respected members of the community, and even Assistant moderators towards enthusiastic new members of the community.

This thread is closed. Do not carry this argument elsewhere on .org