some small things, to make it more nice

[Magyar Khan]

it seems my dreams come tru, a mongol add on.

- i hope they make new mongol figures/sprites
- i hope that the mongol figures dont have the little flags on their bags
- mongols fire more accurate, and with different arrows to panic
- ability to lay fire in the field, which moves according to the wind
- buy human shields!
- we can have some camels
- can resupply arrows! when buying a wagon train
- buy dummy horsebackriders

did i miss something?

[Kurando]

How's about two mountains of severed heads to drive your chariots between?

[Tenchimuyo]

How about cal.45 as sidearms for archers when they run out!

[Magyar Khan]

hehhe u funny guys

beware

DONT MESS with a mongol!

[Ii Naomasa]

While on the subject of Mongol cavalry archer accuracy (which should be considerably better than current CA units' abilities (maybe even allow the vaunted 'shoot on the run' for them?), we may want to also increase the accuracy of the Japanese cavalry archer units as well, making them more viable. The 13th century began to see the decline of the bow in favor of the spear and sword among the bushi, but many of the older families still held on to the tradition of the upper echelon warriors being both skilled archers and horsemen. By the Sengoku period, it was no longer considered the trademark of the warrior class and also was too expensive to train and maintain horsearchers compared to ground troops, which is why the CA seem so useless to many. But in the 13th century, they should be one of the elite units(at least, better enough to appeal to those who can't be bothered with them now) on the Japanese side, at least in my most humble opinion.

[Kurando]

Magy's right; let's try and generate some valid ideas in this thread Ii Naomasa's got the right idea; keep em coming!

[Dark Phoenix]

What do you think that they will do to make the lesser players (like me) to be able to use horses seeing at the moment I just get slaughtered uSing them. Will they have to change effectiveness of YS against horses?


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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon

[Tenchimuyo]

I think the strength and defence of the mongol calvary should be increased. Since calvary was their major part of army and the conqured China and even the middle east with it. I don't think it should be as weak as the Japanese calvary.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The Mongol Cavalry has the potential to become the fastest unit in the game; even faster than YC. Thus, look for flanking and hit & run attacks.

One little-known feature of the Mongol Invasion is that they were actually the first ones to use explosives on a large scale in Japan. To quote the Taihei ki, a 14th century military history (text ripped off Stephen Turnbull's The Samurai - A Military History):

"When the fighting began, mighty iron balls known as teppô were [flung?]. They rolled down the hills like cartwheels, sounded like thunder and looked like bolts of lightning. Two or three thousand of them were [thrown?] at a time, and many soldiers were burned to death."

It is unknown whether this really was Chinese gunpowder or some kind of a Greek fire application, but I wouldn't mind seeing it in STW, whatever it is.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Magyar Khan]

yeah that would be challenging for the developers, shooting arrows will the horses run, that would be cool and easy to programm......

Maggy!
Damn!

You are the best in Stw. Want to be in the expansion pack as well!!!!

Just kidding...lol...i am sure you will do well though...gl !

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre at:

http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa/

[Rob]

Anssi, I like the idea of hurling balls of fire at my opponents, but I'm sure many people would complain about this

It would make a cool feature for a campaign/scenario, but perhaps not for online multiplay

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[BanzaiZAP]

I think the Shoot On the Run would be the best. One thing I didn't like about the current CA is that they have to stop and reform in order to shoot. I really hope they put this in, since it would make for vicious slashing attacks down enemy flanks! (drool drool)

-- B)

[FearOrBeSori]

Heh looking through the screenshots at Gamespot I noticed the the new icons for what I assume is the kensai, Korean aux. troops, and battlefield ninja. The numbers seemed to make sense, 120 or so Korean warriors, 1 Kensai (makes sense but I begin to wonder how useful one man can be unless he starts to experience the invincible daimyo syndrome). However, two groups of 40 or so battlefield ninja!? Come on, roves of ninja fighting on the battlefield only happens in anime. However since the expansion seems to be taking a turn on the unrealistic style, I figure I'd offer my opinions on the abilities of a battlefield ninja.
- They should have the melee properties of SA since its doubtful that a ninja can take out fully armored samurai in a frontal assault.
- Defensively they should have the properties of No-D because similarly ninja should not be wearing armor.
- Speed wise they should be as fast as No-D, maybe even faster.
- Ninja should have a higher than normal bonus for attacking on the flanks and rear.
- As for special abilities, I think ninja should be most at home in the forest where they have cover and can lurk about. Therefore ninja should accrue defensive and attack bonuses when fighting in the forest since it is easier for ninja to fight as individuals and easier for a ninja to shove a katana into a samurai's back. Not sure how they would want to play balance. I think depending on the cost that they want to set ninja at, ninja should be even match with No-D or Nags in the trees. Ninja should also be harder to spot in the forest than any other unit in the game. That way one could set up some interesting ambushes with ninja in the woods.
- Another thing that could be added the is ability to spread discontent among the peasant troops. Possibly an ability that can be used when the ninja get to a certain range. Basically a ranged ability to cause a morale check among peasant troop types. Would be an interesting way to rout guns. Or something like ashi, arqs and musk take a morale check when in melee with ninja.
- Ninja could possibly have a special attack bonus when attacking an enemy Taisho unit. Maybe a higher % probability to kill the enemy taisho.
- Ninja could have the ability to mimic any ground troop in the game. Not so useful in 1v1 but could wreak havoc in 2v2 or higher in multi-player battles.
- Hehe if Magy gets his wagon trail then I want ninja to be able to burn those suckers or capture them. Muhahaha no arrows for u! - Sori

[Katasaki Hirojima]

I's like to see seige weapons and the abillity to hire Ronin.Ronin were known to be bandits and rebels.But Ronin also means Samurai for Hire.Often,wealthy land owners whould hire Ronin bodygaurds.

Ronin basicly means "Masterless Samurai" so you can hire them to work for you.That way,you chould hire a few units of warrior monks early in the game,albeit at a higher cost.Plus,hireing a Ronin unit instantly gives you a unit that turn.

The way it'd work is,you'd get a message that certain provinces currently have Ronin Mercenarys ready to work.YOu chould also send emmisaries to Ronin Provs and buy them over.

What do you guys think?

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Tang Dualism can bo overcome.With sufficent enlightment,we can give substance to any distinction:Mind without body,north without south,pleasure without pain.Renember,enlightment is a function of will power,not of physical strength."-Shang-ji Yang,essays on mind and matter.

[The Black Ship]

Well think about it guys...you can't have the Mongols boh have the ability to shoot on the run AND be the fastest unit in the game! You'd never catch them while they pelt you to death...then with Magy's wagon train wish they'd come back and do it again and again!!!

I still can't fathom the need for 40 ninja! Other than daimyo/taisho attack what good would they be? Any ideas how the would/could work?

[FearOrBeSori]

Quote Originally posted by The Black Ship:


I still can't fathom the need for 40 ninja! Other than daimyo/taisho attack what good would they be? Any ideas how the would/could work?[/QUOTE]

Hehe Shippy u read my post above about the ninja? If CA incorporated some of those abilities than possibly the battlefield ninja could be a viable but specialized unit. Banzai reminded me about what i forgot to put in. The morale that ninja should get if the unit is to operate alone should then probably similar to the bonuses monks get. Can't fathom why the ninja have an ammo bar (doh! totally missed that, stupid me). Plz don't tell me that is for throwing stars. Ugh - Sori

[Rob]

Is there a possibility that ninja could be used for setting traps? I don't know anything about the historical accuracy of that though, but a wise defender would always do anything to make the attacker's job more difficult.

My initial thought was that ninja could be used for creating decoys or otherwise confusing the enemy - the potential for manipulating the morale of the enemy here is huge. However, give them too many kick-ass abilities and they suddenly start to seem like a super-unit. They should probably move fairly fast (No-Dachi speed, I reckon), so can only be caught by cavalry. As for the throwing starts, I will be very surprised if that is not part of the game

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Anssi Hakkinen]

As I posted in another thread, the ninjas in the screenshot are in concealed status. Sneaky little...

And as I posted in yet another thread (this is difficult, having the same discussion in many threads at once), I doubt the "odd-looking unit" in that same screenshot is a Korean auxiliary: the army is a Japanese army, and the Koreans fought for the Mongols.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Magyar Khan]

blackship, but it is hystorical , u cant catch a horsed mongol!

a mongol horse is not the fasted, but more flexible and most strong. so let say they have the movement speed of the heavycav, but dont get tired very easy.... all things are koku related so a fast mobile light cav mongol with a lot of arrows (they had 60 arrows a battle!) with strong horses will cost 550 koku.

[TosaInu]

How about a nice tsunami Magyar?

[FearOrBeSori]

Just wondering how powerful of a melee attack do u think Mongols should have? The same as CA but higher defense value? Oh yea currently how many arrows does each CA horseman carry in the game? 60 volleys from a Mongol unit seems a bit excessive ormaybe its b/c i'm imagining the horrible amount of arrows Magy is going to be throwing at us. Lol - Sori

[johnmcd]

I think you mean kamikaze, not tsunami.

The ninjas would have to be terror troops of some sort I’d have thought, either that or super specialised, maybe able to swim rivers or scale besiged castle walls given their lack of heavy armour.

For my part I’d like to see peasants rally to your side when you retake a still loyal province. Any empty slots could be filled with free ashigaru when you invade a province that still follows you, if their fondness is not so strong you may only get one or two slots of them. After the battle they would melt away again like *insert favourite Haiku about cherry blossom or snow here*. Maybe if you treated them nice on the battlefield (ie didn’t get them all killed/ use them to soak up arrows) the province would become still more loyal to you?

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Originally posted by FearOrBeSori:
Quote Just wondering how powerful of a melee attack do u think Mongols should have? The same as CA but higher defense value?[/QUOTE]I don't claim to be as knowledgeable about this stuff as Magyar-sama, but the Mongols, after all, intended to close with the enemy to engage in close combat after softening them up with arrows - unlike STW's CA. I think Mongol attack value should be midway between CA and HC, and maybe a bit lower still (due to vastly inferior weapon quality). Otherwise they would be pretty useless against other cavalry.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-22-2000).]

[FearOrBeSori]

Quote Originally posted by Anssi Hakkinen:
I think Mongol attack value should be midway between CA and HC, and maybe a bit lower still (due to vastly inferior weapon quality). Otherwise they would be pretty useless against other cavalry.
[/QUOTE]

Well the only problem with that is through the numbers that I have seen on websites and the "strat" guide is that YC and HC have an attack value of 3 and CA a value of 2. YC and HC have different defensive values. U might put Mongols at attack 3 and a weaker defensive value or u could make the attack value 2 and bump up their defense. But either way what do y'all think should be fair? Should Mongols be able to take on No-D or Nags of equal hon? I think we would all agree that it would be unfair if they where even to monks. Lates - Sori

[Magyar Khan]

dunno why u compare mongol cav with nodachis. for me

mongol light cav is same as light cav now, but is less fast on long stretches, more mobile in turning , has more arrows, armor and strength the same, so will cost 500 koku.

mongol medium cav, uses hooked spears to unsaddly other horsemen, so bonus when fighting horses, less fast then yaricav, less armoured then heavy cav, so will cost 500 koku

mongol elite cav (Keshin) will be heavily armored, move as fast as heavy cav, uses spears and are shocktroops. costs 600 koku or even more.

[FearOrBeSori]

Well the comment about comparing mongol cav to no-d or nags was based on the thinking if CA was going to make Mongols into one general cav unit, a unit that had more arrows than CA, as accurate as say SA, and had the melee capablities vs infantry as YC. However if CA is going to go for 3 Mongol cav units then Magy's suggestions would probably be the way they would do it with simply cosmetic changes. Lates - Sori

[Kage]

Ok, here is what I think should have been done to give Ninja more impact on the tactical campaign battles.
First, the very nature of the border forts should be changed from an anti ninja defense (because any ninja worth his black pajama outfit should be able to sneak around a border fort blindfolded)to an invasion early warning role. The early warning actualy allows the defender to use any ninja he has in the province to ambush the taisho of the invading army in what would be a pre-battle ninja attack phase (which would function just like the normal ninja attacks except maybe with a bounus for the ninja being able to set an ambush).
The result of a sucessful ninja attack could be to allow the attacker to call off the attack or continue the attack but the attackers army starts the battle in the same state as when the taisho is killed in battle(ie. demoralized).
IMO this would more accuratly reflect the use of ninja.
Second, the Ninja should be given more strategic missions to attack enemy infrastructure (no, I'm not gonna give up on this one just yet even if it seems kinda like beating a dead horse).
As it seems ninja units on the battlefield is already a foregone conclusion I would have to agree with what some others have already said.
The ninja should probably best be used as an ambush unit in forested terrain. Realisticly they probably wouldn't stand up very well in large scale open field combat (lets face it their real advantage is they sneak up in the dark and kill you while you sleep or stab you in the back).
Now with regard to the mongol cav I can only think this: "They may be fast and shoot pretty good but when the circle closes the little guys with the sharp pokey sticks should clean house" (I think this because I saw alot of honor 9 units on the field in that screenshot).
I'm not really up on my mongol history but I would think that maybe we could/should see some REAL heavy cav (you know, the kind that is made to smash infantry formations).
Well as usual we just have to wait and see I guess.

Have a nice day.

P.S. I'm not really as bitter as I may sound sometimes, after all like many of you I have been and continue to be well entertained by STW. I will also be happy to buy it all over again if it helps improve and get new features added to the game.

[solypsist]

I think what we all need to do is try to use the phrase "black pajama outfit" as much as possible in forthcoming threads.

[johnmcd]

I don’t know much about Japanese history but I’d be amazed if they had cavalry heavy enough to ‘smash’ a body of infantry equipped with spears/ pikes. Even the heavy cavalry of Europe (metal armour too) would do well to destroy the formation or the morale of pikemen (see 1296 and 1314 for further details). The bottom line is that awesome as a charging unit of heavy cavalry would be, its not the same as a dozen battle tanks rolling downhill. Spearmen of all types were a constant of every army facing mounted foes since time immemorial for a good reason- they win.