Red Eyes

**weegee** · 02-14-2005, 19:46

More good advice and lots of little "expert" tricks. Thanks.

I've read the beginner's guide, unit guide, tech trees, etc. Went back and reread them after playing several more rounds and lots more info stuck with me. Very good stuff.

Couple of more questions:

I'm about 30 turns in to an Italian campaign. I've added Serbia, Naples, and Greece (in that order). I'm about to have a very heated battle for Greece. I kept most of my attacking army in Serbia because I've built up the economy there and it's pumping out money. So of course, the Byz's are hitting the weaker army in Greece (good AI, at least in this case). It's going to be a hell of a fight. I don't think I can win, but I hope to reduce the enemy as much as possible for the next fight. I've got 3 genoa sailors, 1 fuedal sarge, 1 reg spear, 1 half strength fuedal MAA, and 1 half strength UM. They've got 2 Trez archer, 4 Byz Inf, 2 Slav warrior, 2 peasant, and the killer, 2 Kataphraktoi or Khwarazmian (can't remember which, I think the first though). I'm hoping to thin them out and then either get routed or continue to fight on to the death. My force in Serbia is much stronger and should be able to either counter attack back or at least pose them with some problems. What sort of tactics do you suggest and who should I target to thin them down?

And now for the thorn in my side. Sicily decides to sink one my ships. We had such a good trade going

I've tried sending princesses and emissaries to cease fire, but they want this fight bad. So what sort of ships work best against what Sicily has in the ocean? I've got 3 Dromons and 3 Galleys that I'm trying to concentrate into one or two zones. Should I stack/not stack? What should I hit with? I'm worried that if I don't take out at least one of their ships, they'll make a push on Corsica or Sard because those were left thinnly defended to hit Greece and Naples. Of course Byz smelled blood in the water and also sent over a ship to start hassling me as well.

**fuddha** · 02-14-2005, 20:25

Well fighting of 960 units with 440 units will be a problem. I would lose...

I'd split my forces evenly in Greece and Serbia. He won't attack if he doesn't have more units to show up with. Pressing Byz hard and taking Bulgaria, Greece and Constantinople is a must. Especially for trading Italians. Try to bring more units than he has and frighten him to Nicacea and Trebizond. Seek help in Egypt and Turkey. They'll keep him busy. If you don't have that many forces (3-4 stacks will be needed to take "the big C"), retreat from Greece to Serbia and wait till muslims weaken Byzant. If you have a fort in Greece, you could also retreat to it and counter attack a turn later.

If it comes to a fight, I'd try to pin his general kataphraktoi (probably king or prince) with spear units and flank it with whatever you got (armour piercing UM and one more spear), concentrate missile fire and hope you'll kill him before the rest of his army comes to the rescue. But I don't think the AI will be stupid enough to charge katatanks in your spears... Although it has happend many times.
Also try to get Slavic Javelin from Serbia - if katatanks are pinned down with spears, 4-5 plotoones can wipe them out if positioned properly.

Naval combat - it's been talked about in this forum. The thread is called "naval combat - to stack or not to stack" (or something like that). No need to repeat.

It was a mistake not to deal with Sicilians first. If they manage to outproduce you in amount of ships, you're in a world of pain...

**weegee** · 02-14-2005, 20:59

thanks Fuddha. I've been waiting for the Byz's to implode but it's slow coming. They're currently at war with Turkey, but it's too far off my front to see what exactly is going on. I've been keeping an eye out on the Germans, French and Argonese because there's lots of action up there, and my northern borders are lightly defended. I'm allied with most of the factions, except Sicily and Byz of course.

I'm thinking about trying to cease fire with Byz and then crushing Sicily. The problem is getting them to accept. I've got ship making abilities in Venice and Genoa, so I'm hoping I can pump out boats faster than Sicily. Even they're going to have to decide whether to go with boats or troops and once I can build up Naples a little, they'll be at risk for a land assualt, and not this petty ocean going stuff. Although the Germans are starting to scare me because they've taken Croatia and basically have me surrounded on my northern fronts.

I've got the cash (about 30k) stock piled to dig in and start pumping out troops. Now it's just a question of priority troop builds. Luckily I'm only a handful of turns away from ILI and that might just save the day. So long as I can keep my ships connected to Serbia and/or Naples.

P.S. I caught the naval stack thread after I posted. Good stuff over there. I guess I'll try hitting them with as much as I got on a one to one basis.

**Procrustes** · 02-14-2005, 21:58

Originally Posted by weegee

I'm about 30 turns in to an Italian campaign. I've added Serbia, Naples, and Greece (in that order). I'm about to have a very heated battle for Greece. I kept most of my attacking army in Serbia because I've built up the economy there and it's pumping out money. So of course, the Byz's are hitting the weaker army in Greece (good AI, at least in this case). It's going to be a hell of a fight. I don't think I can win, but I hope to reduce the enemy as much as possible for the next fight. I've got 3 genoa sailors, 1 fuedal sarge, 1 reg spear, 1 half strength fuedal MAA, and 1 half strength UM. They've got 2 Trez archer, 4 Byz Inf, 2 Slav warrior, 2 peasant, and the killer, 2 Kataphraktoi or Khwarazmian (can't remember which, I think the first though). I'm hoping to thin them out and then either get routed or continue to fight on to the death. My force in Serbia is much stronger and should be able to either counter attack back or at least pose them with some problems. What sort of tactics do you suggest and who should I target to thin them down?

That would be a really, really tough fight - you are outnumbered by more than 2:1 and your troops are badly outclassed. What are the opposing generals like? It will help a lot if the Byz general is crappy. If you decide to fight it I think your best bet would be to back yourself up against some woods, preferablly with some elevation and a very long distance between you and where they will set up. You want to use your archers to thin out their better troops - don't let them fire on the peasants or slavs. Concentrate on their general whenever you get the chance, and their byz inf or other kat otherwise. You need to kill the general to get a route going. Try to draw their cav into the woods and try to get your spears on his cav - especially the general. Try to fend off his spears with your few MAA and UM. If (when) it looks like you are going to be overwhelmed in a melee don't hesitate to charge your archers at the peasants or slavs - you're desperate. Kill any prisoners you may capture during the battle as the tide is apt to change. Do anything you can to route them while protecting your general - you are already taking moral penalties because of the imbalance in forces, if your general dies you are finished.

This is really desperate stuff, but I do it sometimes for fun. Even if you loose (which is likely), try to take a bunch of the Byz soldiers with you before you retreat to your fortification. If you have troops nearby they can come to the rescue next year.

This gets a lot easier when you have some better troops. It takes a while, but as the Italians you can get the Italian Infantry - really great spears, especially in early. Also, you need a little bit of cav yourself to help harass the enemy and draw their formations apart. You can get mounted crossbows by building only the first level horse-farmer (you need 20% farms first) - they are cheap but kind of timid and they shoot for crap, but they still make effective light cav until you can get better. If you can build feudal sgts, you can build mounted sgts with just the second level horse-farm. (Sturdier light cav, but no missiles.) Build armorers when you have the time/money, and build a weapons workshop in Tuscany after a while. Build religious building to get moral bonuses for troops built in those provinces.

**weegee** · 02-14-2005, 23:23

More very good tips, thanks.

Assuming this war between myself and Byzs goes several years, probably even decades, what sort of unit am I best building to counter act. Seems like they have a lot of sword type units and of course those blasted heavy cavs. So obviously I'm going to need a lot of spears, hopefully soon ILI, I guess I'll pump out fuedal sergeants until then. How about militia sergeants (? I think that's them, the next unit above urban militia). Seems like they can do some damage against horses and swords.

The Sicilians have 3 or 4 princes of age, so there's all the Royal Knights to deal with over there. Oh fun! I've only got the King's and the 1 Prince. And they're at opposite sides of the kingdom. I think I'm headed for disaster. Funny how a small 2 province faction will probably end up being my down fall.

If Germany were smart they'd slam down into Milan and Genoa because I only have a couple of UM in each. Thank God they've proven to be loyal allies up until this point, knock on wood. If they grab one of those I'd be done in about 7 turns.

**weegee** · 02-15-2005, 19:10

Just to close out this thread. The Battle of Greece was a well fought fight. I actually miscounted the Byz force a little bit. They had 2 Byz Infantry not 4. Anyway, I put myself on top of a very steep hill at the edge of the board, that way when I routed it would be a quick end. Archers were spread out in a long thin line, almost like a unproportioned, loosely shaped V. Spears in front to protect, and my MAA and UM on the flanks.

I targeted the heavy cav all the way up the slope and managed to clip some of them with some of my spear units. Then I sent in UM to swarm them. My boys lasted about 4 or 5 minutes, a lot more than I thought. I guess those hills (actually more like a mountain) really do help. One unit of Katas was cut down to 12 men and the other to 15. They're inf, slavs, and archers took about 15% losses as well. I don't remember exactly, but my losses were 120 compared to their 320 or so. Good match. On the next turn they sent over a princess to ask for a cease fire.

**Procrustes** · 02-15-2005, 22:38

Hey, you done real good! Thanks for posting this thread - I had a lot of fun following it.

(I have a lot of fun with those small, desperate fights - I kinda prefer them to the massive clashes and messing with reinforcements.)