Takeda clan

[DeadRunner]

well i am playing with hojo,in a slow conquering campaing,i make a aliance with Takeda(but always with a very large army in the takeda borders,never trust in a takeda ).
My prob is that i am envloving already the takeda lands ,and now i have 2 options waste the takeda and do what i rare do breaking a aliance our waste a lot of money in keeping huge army,s in takeda lands, our takeda do what we always do break the alaince(that was a disaster in short term,but a blesson in a long term)

[Adrian II]

well i am playing with hojo,in a slow conquering campaing,i make a aliance with Takeda(but always with a very large army in the takeda borders,never trust in a takeda ).
My prob is that i am envloving already the takeda lands ,and now i have 2 options waste the takeda and do what i rare do breaking a aliance our waste a lot of money in keeping huge army,s in takeda lands, our takeda do what we always do break the alaince(that was a disaster in short term,but a blesson in a long term)

Bom dia, DeadRunner. Go waste Takeda, man! He shouldn't present much of a problem to you if you have a well-developed Hojo army. Takeda is big on Cavalry, but it makes his armies unbalanced and once you have them tied down with your Yari Samurai you should win rather easily. However, don't weaken your presence in Shinano (I gather from your post that you have already 'enveloped' Takeda's lands) because every one else wants it. And try to lure Takeda out of Kai before you conquer it, so you will destroy as little as possible of that province's (usually) valuable infrastructure. My final battles with Takeda were often in Totomi, a beautiful flat battlefield where his Cavalry could roam freely before I pinned them down...

[Togakure]

I usually take a different approach regarding Shinano. Because everyone wants it, let them fight over it--it occupies their attention, ties up a lot of men holding it, and costs them a lot of men defending it. I use the time to take all the other rich lands (Uesugi lands, if you're playing Hojo) and develop a nice infrastructure and strong armies, then take Shinano, when I have a large number of good troops and the income to support building a lot of cavalry.

Even when I play Uesugi in the Sengoku scenario, I abandon Shinano on the 2nd turn, sweeping down into the Hojo Lands via Hitachi and Shimosa, usually eliminating them within the first two years. An uncommon strategy perhaps, but it works well for me consistently on Expert difficulty.

If you play for the battles and not as an exercise in war strategy, then take Shinano and enjoy the fighting.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I've always liked taking Shinano, then never regarrisoning it and having my army get smaller and smaller and smaller. You get some fun battles that way, especially since the ai likes to double team you on that map.

[Adrian II]

Even when I play Uesugi in the Sengoku scenario, I abandon Shinano on the 2nd turn, sweeping down into the Hojo Lands via Hitachi and Shimosa, usually eliminating them within the first two years.

With all due respect, don't you think it is preferable to hold on to Shinano from the start?
In order to do so, you have to withdraw your initial units from Hida and station them in Shinano. With two YS and two SA in Shinano, reinforced by new units and by your Daimyo if need be, you can hold out for ages and still conquer Hitachi fairly quickly (which is indeed necessary because of the Armoury, though Shinano has iron and sand deposits, too).
Hida will not be lost for at least fifteen turns, if not more, because Imagawa has been programmed to attack Shinano, Oda is too busy warding off Mori and Imagawa, and the Rebels in Kaga will leave Hida alone as long as you don't touch them. This way you will bring in much koku from Shinano and Hida, and have a chance to raise Shinano horsemen early on.

[Togakure]

"With all due respect, don't you think it is preferable to hold on to Shinano from the start?
In order to do so, you have to withdraw your initial units from Hida and station them in Shinano. With two YS and two SA in Shinano, reinforced by new units and by your Daimyo if need be, you can hold out for ages and still conquer Hitachi fairly quickly (which is indeed necessary because of the Armoury, though Shinano has iron and sand deposits, too).
Hida will not be lost for at least fifteen turns, if not more, because Imagawa has been programmed to attack Shinano, Oda is too busy warding off Mori and Imagawa, and the Rebels in Kaga will leave Hida alone as long as you don't touch them. This way you will bring in much koku from Shinano and Hida, and have a chance to raise Shinano horsemen early on." - AdrianII

***

When I first played this scenario I did what you described. I played so many games that eventually I started challenging myself to try different things--oftentimes radically different. I stumbled across some really neat and unorthodox campaign approaches this way. I am playing STW-Mongol Invasions, v1.02, btw (Warlord Edition).

In this scenario and with this strategy, my initial goals are to:
- eliminate Hojo's Capitol (troop-producing province) by the end of Turn 3
- Force Hojo into Musashi, taking all other Hojo provinces within 2 years or so
- Take Musashi, eliminating Hojo and adding his very rich lands to my very rich lands, making me VERY VERY rich
- Take back Shinano from Imagawa without a fight (by attacking with a gigantic army), thus having him pay for the initial development of Shinano (Domo Arigato, baka Imagawa-chan).

Basically, I try to concentrate my forces and dominate the richest lands in Japan as quickly as possible, but with the smallest and most defensible front possible. To do this, I initially give up Shinano (and Hida), creating a vaccuum for Imagawa, Oda, and Takeda to quibble over while I eliminate Hojo.

I think maybe I play differently than many do when it comes to an SP campaign. I am not so interested in fun battles. For me, single player games are an exercise in campaign strategy--say, Roosevelt as opposed to Patton. I like winning through a combination of superior strategic positioning, a superior economy and capacity to produce, superior number of troops (early on) and quality of troops (later on), extensive use of all covert agent types (but not so much to make the game cheesy), as few casualties as possible (troops are my fellow countrymen), and without ever losing a province (that I intend to keep; I often abandon a recently taken province to "draw" the enemy out of a strong defensive position, and then just take it back). This is what TOTAL war means to me.

***

Turn 1, I move troops from Hida to Shinano (abandoning Hida), troops in Shinano to Echigo, troops in Echigo to Mutsu, etc. I move the Ashi in Sado to Dewa--destination Mutsu. I produce a YS in Mutsu (so I have an even number of archers and YS in my attack on Hitachi, and then Shimosa). I start buildling a Castle (then a Spear Dojo) in Echigo. I send an emissary to ally with Takeda (the long way, avoiding Shinano and Imagawa's ninja).

Imagawa almost always attacks Shinano on the first turn. I retreat the troops in Shinano to Echigo without a battle, to protect that flank (taking advantage of the river in Echigo--I don't need to station as many troops there to prevent attack). Imagawa usually moves west and takes Etchu from the rebels, and thins out his forces. If Hojo doesn't garrison Kokuze effectively, sometimes Imagawa will attack Kokuze. Same with Echigo, so it's important for me to both garrison Echigo effectively and try to force Hojo to protect Kokuze (I prefer concentrating on one enemy at a time, so I avoid conflict with Imagawa until i finish Hojo, even though I'm at war with Mr. Blackteeth from the beginning).

On Turn 2, I attack Hitachi from Mutsu with everything stationed there (I think 2 archers, 2 YS, an ashi, and my Daimyo). Hojo withdraws without fighting. Turn 3 I drop taxes to very low, move the one Ashi from Mutsu into Hitachi as garrison, and attack Shimosa. Usually a good bridge battle, but I invariably win. First major goal is accomplished: the Hojo have lost their capacity to produce troops for a few turns, and I hold Hitachi (600 koku per season!) and Shimosa (290 koku per season, and an easily defended river province). Shinano and Hida combined produce 440 koku or so--890 is more than twice 440--and both Hitachi and Shimosa can support Ports, which Hida and Shinano cannot ... . Furthermore, I am no longer spread all over the map and vulnerable to attack from so many places and so many clans.

Over the next few turns things are interesting as Hojo tries to hold on to Shimotsuke and Kokuze, usually buildling troop-producing buildings in Musashi. Kazusa must be taken or it becomes a prickly little thorn in my backside when I'm pushing towards Musashi and Shinano. This part is always fun, and I have to be careful to consider all of Hojo's possible moves. It's easy to take Shimotsuke and Kazusa, but hard sometimes to hold them, given it's so early in the game and I don't have very many troops to attack with, or to garrison with if I win. Even at very low tax levels, garrisons are necessary to prevent rebellions, which are a royal pain in the arse at this stage in the game. And of course: one must be sure not to blunder and allow Hojo to take Mutsu by not leaving a strong garrison there.

The Hojo are in a bit of a snit at this point. Losing a few turns and not being able to produce troops is a big deal so early in the game, particularly since they start this scenario low on troops. But they will reestablish troop production quickly, so it is imperative to stay on them, and take them out ASAP. I get Echigo up and producing basic troops (SA and YS) quickly. If I'm lucky, some of Shimosa's troop producing buildings remain after my takeover.

Usually, after a few turns, Hojo only has Musashi left, with me having just enough troops to hold Kozuke, Shimotsuke and Shimosa (at first, that's why it's so important to crank out troops fast, and generate koku to support them). Meanwhile, Oda or the rebels have taken Hida (my experience anyway--Hida is taken within the first 3 turns or so on Expert), and Imagawa has taken Shinano, Etchu, and sometimes Suruga (starting a war with Takeda). Imagawa is spread all over the place by the time I eliminate Hojo and take Musashi, so it's easy to take back back Shinano, which I accomplish usually without a fight by attacking with a very large army (the troops that served as garrison become army troops as Dewa starts cranking out Shinobi; I raise taxes to punishing levels and leave them there for the rest of the game).

My front is now Musashi, Shinano, Echigo and Sado--four points of possible contention, two of them river provinces, one is isolated and can only be attacked from one (empty) province, and one has a fabulous mountain from which to defend. The richest lands of Japan are mine. My income is triple that of the next richest clan, within 3-4 years of game start or so. I have three provinces with armories (Shinano, Hitachi and Sado), one with a Cav Special. I have my covert ops center well under way in Dewa, and great emissaries coming from Kazusa. Imagawa, Oda, and Takeda are preoccupied with each other and pay little attention to what Hojo and I are up to. Imagawa builds up Shinano, and since he usually abandons it without a fight when I finally attack, I inherit all of his investments there (therefore still able to build Shinano cav early on, and now I have bucko bucks to pay for them).

Once Imagawa loses Shinano, his spine in central Japan is broken, and before long he is usually forced out of central Japan and back to his holdings on Kyushu. Takeda has a defensible position but a tiny income--it's just a matter of time before I can push west from Musashi, pivoting on a massive force in Shinano. Uesugi Kenshin's maturation usually signals Takeda's doom, and the commencement of my push to eliminate Oda and the Eastern rebels as well--destination Kyoto (well, Kawachi, Harima, Tamba, and Tajima, actually).

***

There are many, many ways to successfully conduct a campaign in this scenario. This is just one of my favorites because it's unconventional. I have always been one to try the unexpected--to approach conflict in a way that my enemies are least likely to expect. This results in some bizarre strategies and tactics, but some of them work really well.

Try the 1580 Tokugawa campaign. Completely raze and abandon Hizen, your richest of three starting provinces, on the first turn (after moving your troops and agents out, of course). Hmm ... why on earth would someone do that, and what would they do, having done that, I wonder ... ?! Try it and see. It's another seemingly crazy but very effective opening strategy.

Wow, how the hell did I write so much so fast?? Sorry for the book, hope you find it interesting.

[Adrian II]

Thank you for the book, TogakureOjonin, I am honoured.

It is always a pleasure to read about the views of fellow-lovers of the game, and in particular about the different tastes and strategies they develop once they have completely internalized the game. Some work out strategies that reflect their concept of historical accuracy or honour (or both). Others base their approach on careful analysis of the strenghts and weaknesses of various opponents. Still others pick the gamecodes apart and calculate their way to the Shogunate. In my case, after I had 'seen it all' the only thing that never stopped fascinating me was the art of blitzing, both strategically and tactically. I cannot remember the precise 'ins and outs' of my favourite Uesugi-strategy because I last played Shogun two years ago or so. But it involved holding on to my main possessions such as Shinano because I valued their koku and needed it to raise armies quickly. Besides, Shinano is one heck of a battlefield. Steep hills on either side of a long valley, woods, shrubs and rocks - Shinano has all the elements for protracted and often surprising three-or foursomes between allied or contending conquerors.
And I don't mind facing two enemies at the same time.

[Togakure]

Yes, I wish more players would describe their favorite openings in detail. I find the different strategies and tactics very interesting. I was surprised when I first came on board here that there weren't more narratives like this (even for MTW, as Shogun was in its twilight stages already when I joined). It does require a bit of writing though. Maybe it's not worth it to many to type so much.

A short while back, some were sharing their ideas for blitz campaigns, and iirc they actually had a contest of sorts, seeing who could conquer Japan the fastest. Their approach was completely different from mine, and it was quite amazing how fast some of them could win. If you haven't read these you might find them entertaining. I'd post a link but I don't remember what the thread was called off the top of my head.

What I meant by prefering to face one enemy at a time is that it's good strategy to avoid conflict with two enemies at once if you can. As the game is an exercise in strategy for me, I try to apply the principles put out by Sun Tzu and the like. By mid-game I'm usually at war with everyone anyway, so it's interesting to me to try and stay on neutral terms with most factions for as long as I can.

[Adrian II]

Togakure Ojonin, I remember that topic well because I posted some longer stories in it. It was started by a member who made disparaging remarks about Yari Ashigaru (I believe it was called something like "Ashi's, who needs them anyway?") and I corrected that by explaining my Oda tactics and recounting some wild experiences with my Oda YA. TosaInu then posted a link to this blitz contest, where someone described an even more aggressive Oda campaign opening than I ever thought possible. It looked quite hair-raising.

And then some new member started a thread for campaign stories, nothing came of it, curtains descended, the Dojo remained utterly silent for a few weeks. Still, I love the place and always check here for new stories, posts about the RTW/Shogun mod, etcetera. Somewhere in January I want to dust off my STW-cd's and try my hand at MP. Maybe we will cross swords. I look forward to learning from you.

[Togakure]

I seem to have lost my MP touch of late (not that I was that great before, but I was better than I am now)--didn't play at all for about 5 months this summer and the subtleties of control seem to have gone on permanent vacation based on the way I played a month ago or so.

Sorry to say, but I'm also tired of dealing with certain personalities that frequent the public fakeserver (just not fun for me to hang there anymore). On the rare occasions that I MP nowadays, we play on other fakeservers. A pity, as 2v2s are my favorite and it's nice to play against different teams. When I came to check out Tosa's server, most were playing very laggy 4v4s. My connection is slow to begin with, and in 4v4s it takes 3-5 seconds for a unit to start running after I issue a Control+R command ... rather difficult to control an army and respond effectively under these conditions.

Sasaki Kojiro (this forum's Assistant Mod) is the man for 1v1 MP battles. If you can beat him twice in ten, you're doing good, imo. He sometimes goes by Mimesaka Akechi online. My two favorite guys to learn from online were Aggony Betou and Anskar Hojo. They are just the coolest--great players and great people. Sasaki is a demon in 1v1s; these two excel as partners for 2v2 battles. 47RoninIshida is also a great guy and excellent 2v2 partner. I really love synergistic 2v2 victories.

Anyway, blah blah blah ... . When you get up and running, if you still want to play sometime, PM me and we can make arrangements.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A short while back, some were sharing their ideas for blitz campaigns, and iirc they actually had a contest of sorts, seeing who could conquer Japan the fastest. Their approach was completely different from mine, and it was quite amazing how fast some of them could win. If you haven't read these you might find them entertaining. I'd post a link but I don't remember what the thread was called off the top of my head.

Hey! I think I'll go start that up again!

[Drisos]

With all due respect, don't you think it is preferable to hold on to Shinano from the start?
In order to do so, you have to withdraw your initial units from Hida and station them in Shinano.

Lately, i tried an uesugi hard campaign. to defend shinano from the imagawa(i knew he was gonna attack me right away)i moved my troops from hida and echigo over there and deafeated him easily! I couldn't attack hojo.(i had to move at least 60 troops to echigo to defend it from the rebels)

next turn my reinforcements from sado arrived in echigo and i moved my troops back into hida, i held all of my provincies but hadn't attacked one yet, don't know if that was a good result ?

adrian, you don't play the game anymore?? (i can't imagine that )

that's the reason why you don't respond here so often anymore, i have to wait for a reaction for days mostly, then i get the feeling that i'm not of any importance here . . .

bye guys

toga, that was a nice story( a book, as adrian said )

[gatoshin]

Lately, i tried an uesugi hard campaign. to defend shinano from the imagawa(i knew he was gonna attack me right away)i moved my troops from hida and echigo over there and deafeated him easily! I couldn't attack hojo.(i had to move at least 60 troops to echigo to defend it from the rebels)

I like the "wait and see" approach to a Uesugi campaign. That means not simply pulling my troops out of Shinano, but not fighting tooth and nail and taking massive losses because of it, either. If the enemy makes a major push, I withdraw my troops until I'm ready to retake the province.

Beats cramming my troops into a corner to weather the storm. Strategy games should have larger boundaries for the attacker to maneuver his forces than the defender, so that no stationary army is immune to outflanking. Oh, well.

[Quietus]

As Uesugi, I usually give up Shinano when attacked early. When I get enough troops it is easy taking it back. They usually fight for that province back and forth as well (as an added bonus).

[Biggus Diccus]

In my latest Uesugi campaign (STW WE 1.02 ) I defended Shinano from Takeda, Imagawa and Hojo. They attacked almost every turn, but I managed a kill rate of at least 5:1, often a lot better. This depleted their forces while I built up mine, and when I got tired of Shinano defensive battles I steamrolled through Hojo, Takeda and Imagawa lands.

[Drisos]

When I get enough troops it is easy taking it back. ---posted by quietus---

i've had much trouble taking it back, defending it was very easy , though.

that'll be because of our different strategies