Post-Patch: Stone Walls Bugged?

**Red Harvest** · 02-16-2005, 23:37

Well, why didn't you mention the spy in the first post?

This is a an actual gameplay enhancement, not a bug. We discussed this quite a bit, how having a spy didn't stop the oil, so as a result sapping or other techniques were preferable to the open gate. Nice to see that CA fixed it.

They really should have bragged more about these enhancements in the readme...opportunity missed.

**Jambo** · 02-16-2005, 23:55

The spy disabling oil that was one I suggested that got in at the end.. :)

Hey Red Harvest, managed to get any more info on the VnV's, esp on the stuff that you suggested over at TWcenter, i.e. auto calc?

**Uesugi Kenshin** · 02-17-2005, 04:22

I personally think it would be really hard for the spy to disable the oil, it would be dropped by troops and spies were not shock troops. Plus how do you ruin the oil? Spill it all when the gaurds are not looking? Hell it would work well with boiling water, just not as well.

But I do not feel strongly about this, I always use siege towers and the AI rarely uses spies.

**The_Emperor** · 02-17-2005, 09:59

Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin

I personally think it would be really hard for the spy to disable the oil, it would be dropped by troops and spies were not shock troops. Plus how do you ruin the oil? Spill it all when the gaurds are not looking? Hell it would work well with boiling water, just not as well.

Are you sure he didn't just stick a few holes in their buckets??

**Jambo** · 02-17-2005, 10:44

Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin

I personally think it would be really hard for the spy to disable the oil, it would be dropped by troops and spies were not shock troops. Plus how do you ruin the oil? Spill it all when the gaurds are not looking? Hell it would work well with boiling water, just not as well.

But I do not feel strongly about this, I always use siege towers and the AI rarely uses spies.

BY your theory then, why don't the troops just simply close the pre-opened gates?!

The way I always imagined it was the spy opening the gates signalled an assault that was catching the defenders unaware (after all it is subterfuge). In this case is easily feasible that the spy would also be able to disable the oil. As to "ruining" oil - use you imagination - he could spill it, hide it or simply light it up in the place it's kept.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs however, from the perspective of the AI it's absolutely essential that the oil is disabled when a spy has pre-opened the gates. Under these sitautions the AI troops simply drop their siege equipment and charge headlong through the open gate(s). With the oil in place it's plain suicide and they'd be better of using their siege equipment (in many ways they'd still be better using both). As a result, what you found then was that spies were actually detrimental to AI assaults.

**Red Harvest** · 02-17-2005, 16:38

Yes, the spy getting the gates opened has many historical precedents. The spy recruits others within a settlement who for political, financial, or self preservation reasons secure the gatehouse. The odd part is still that all gates are open, but we won't go there...

And even if the men at the pots were not somehow disabled, they would not be prepared for the assault, so at best it would take them time to stoke the fires, heat the oil, and be ready to pour. They would not have sufficient time when the gates were *already open*.

**Uesugi Kenshin** · 02-18-2005, 04:28

I agree that it is not done very realistically and as I said it is not really an issue with me. I just happen to always voice the other side of this issue. After stone walls I never see any force get a ram to the gate and never use the gate when a spy opens it in a stone wall, I like using siege towers. But now that oil gets disabled it would be more practical for me to use the gates as the Greeks. Recrtuiting townsmen to hold the gate sounds likely, maybe it shouldn be that troops can fight in the gatehouse and you get a small unit to hold it with and unprepared enemies?

Probably would be hard to do though...

**Red Harvest** · 02-17-2005, 05:07

Originally Posted by Jambo

The spy disabling oil that was one I suggested that got in at the end.. :)

Hey Red Harvest, managed to get any more info on the VnV's, esp on the stuff that you suggested over at TWcenter, i.e. auto calc?

Glad you got that one in!

I haven't played with VnV's today. I got caught up in making flaming javelins (like the Spanish used) after someone asked, and in the same time disabling flaming arrows, LOL. I was trying a few other unit mods as well, but those didn't pan out--can't fix those blasted elephant archers. All my campaign map time has been testing the massive adjustments I am doing to the campaign to get the AI to make better units. I have only modified about half the regions so far...and none of the build queue.