Hoplites Outdated?

[Urnamma]

You're right on that, I'd confused the two for a moment.

Still the average thureos weighed about 12-13 lbs and were made of plywood. The average aspis... 18-24. We can see the substantial difference in weight was consistent with 'lightening' the weight of the hoplite, but not lowering his defensive power.

[conon394]

Let's just make sure what we are talking about here are my views...

Aspis, the classic Hoplite shield: weight around 13 or 15 lbs. I think 18 lbs is too high and in any case lighter then the scutum.

Pelta, a wicker or light wood and hide shield.

Thureos, a word that clearly enters the Greek post the Celtic incursions. Used by late authors to describe almost any oval shield. Thus the oval pelta or even rimless plywood shield of a mercenary peltast could be a Thureos or something as heavy as a scutum (Celtic or Roman) used by late heavy infantry. In any a case the scutum is certainly as heavy if not heavier then the estimates for the aspis around 20 - 22 lbs.

My feeling is that in the second or first century if Greek heavily infantry adopted a thureos what is implied is a scutum like shield that may have been an improvement over the aspis, but not lighter. Other wise I think we are (in the 4th and 3rd centuries) more likely dealing with mercenaries using a cheap oval pelta or at best an oval plywood shield, men who should be considered peltasts, not really expected to stand against hoplites or Macedonian style phalanxes.

edit: rimless wood thureos might well weight only 12-13 lbs or even a bit less, but I think the men who used such a shield were not the Heavy infantry but the kind of medium to light infantry that fought on the flanks of the battle line, as at Sallasia for example.

[Ranika]

Actually, the weight of the Celtic oval shields varies widely depending on the region they come from. The Boii used lighter shields of thinner ply construction that only weighed around 12-13 pounds. Most Gauls used solid oak, they weighed more than that. The Helvetii and others used shields sometimes with metal inserts in them, and heavy rims, those might weigh around 18+ pounds. There is a large error in stating an average weight for a Celtic oval shield, because different regions constructed their shields in a different manner; so, depending on the build of the shields used by the Greeks, and what they based it on, the theuros could vary widely in weight. If it were like the Boii shields (unrimmed, plywood, with a small metal boss and reinforcing metal strip), they would be relatively light. But if they were more like the majority of Gallic shields (solid oak or thick plywood construction with a large metal boss and quarter rims), then they would be a bit heavie.

[Angadil]

Perhaps a distinction more functionally significant between aspis and thureos than weight would be the way each shield was held?

IIRC, the thureos had a single central hand-grip, while the aspis used the hand and forearm system. I would guess this difference should have an effect on how much protection each fighter can expect from its own and its neighbor's shield and, hence, on the general fighting style and details such as the way weapons were handled etc...

Cheers
A.