Ethical limits

[Kokueater]

I think there are different grades of purism between STW players. I'm not talking about the use of cheats like .muchkoku. or similar, they are immoral even in single player mode. But there are some strategies whose use is valuated in different ways. What do you think about...?

1-Save the game before autumn to prevent poor harvests. Bad harvests are too usual at expert level, and this is a seriuos handicap specially playing shimazu or Mori.

2-The use of Geishas to kill high rank enemy Taishos, Heirs and Daimyos. Some say that convert enemy clans into ronin makes the game boring, other say if you don't do it when you can, they DO IT against you.

3-The use of ports for long distance invasions. Some purists of STW say this is not ethic since AI clans never attack you this way. But I think if Takeda and Imagawa use ports to reinforce their provinces, why you not?

What about you?

[Catiline]

Immoral's a bit on the heavy side, there are some, like .conan. an .matteosartori. which increase the enjoyment of the game.

As to your other points

1) This is a bit slack, no different to using muchkoku or something similar, you're fidling with the economics, just because you've not typed in a code oesn't make it better.

2)i used to use Geisha's as terminators, but it gets dull. i use them to protect my aimyo an heirs at later stages in the game, but if you play fast conquest rather than slow burn, Japans pretty much yours before it becomes an issue

3) Moving forces betwen your own provinces and invading by sea are two very different kettles of fish. I do use enemy ports to get shinobi and nija in quickly, I think that's fair enough, if your special forces are any good they should at least be able to stow away succesfully. i don't attack in the rear with armies though, unopposed landings and then you get to fight a land battle with theforces that the AI probably not matching anything you invade with. Not historical and not much fun unless you're in it to win it.

------------------
It's not a bug, it's a feature

[This message has been edited by Catiline (edited 01-16-2001).]

[solypsist]

this post appears a little rhetorical, since it seems you've already answered your own questions.

[ShaiHulud]

The real draw of STW is the battles. So, using Geisha (or nuclear weapons) pretty much dispenses with the fun part.
Naval invasions in the period were major endeavors which required the tasking of most of the vessels from a large area. Blithely dropping in from the far end of the island just didn't happen. As STW seems to attract folks with interest in re-enacting historical POSSIBILITIES port assaults would not be attractive to most players.
Harvests..hmm, My last game, as Shimazu found my attack on Mori followed by two disastrous harvest, -150 or so each time. I can easily imagine the chagrin a Daimyo of that day would have felt. If I accepted ONLY great harvests, I'd lose that part of the game. Yes, I lost, miserably. But the next game was more successful and I can respect my personal record against the computer because I didn't take unfair advantages.

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[solypsist]

hmm....yes, ShaiHulud, I guess you nailed it when you said: "I can respect my personal record against the computer because I didn't take unfair advantages. " which is really what it all means anyway. Some players feel the ends justify the means, and might not feel bad about saving and reloading to get advantageous outcomes, but these are usually the new gamers who are curious about what follows (cutscenes, new troop types, etc.) while players who have been with STW feel more compelled to challenge themselves by placing more restrictions on what they allow themselves.
I sure remember grinning as I used that port attack back when I was just learning the campaign. But now I don't, because (I hate metaphor, but it's the best way) the journey is what interests me, not the end.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 01-16-2001).]

[barocca]

Ports,
For Ambassadors, Ninja, Geisha and Shinobi the AI will use any port, anywhere on the map.
Ever wonder where the ambassador came from that pops into the rear Area of the Shimazu Clan, as soon as you build a port?

The AI will only use Ports for troop movements that it can 'see' from adjacent provinces. Due to having a watchtower or border fort there.
One example, (I have seen many)

I have been in contact with Hojo adjacent to only ONE of my provinces.
I had a port in that province, Hojo had a watchtower in his.
Hojo had only a dozen units in 2 stacks of six in that province, yet, at the end of the season, he invaded with 20 odd uniits!
These units did not come from other provinces adjacent to mine, unless Hojo can move units through Oda provinces at double speed. They did not come from the Single Hojo province that bordered mine.
The only explanation is they came from a province That I could not yet see containing a port.

If the AI can do it, so can I.
Besides, you can't just take the province, you have to be able to hold it.
The opportunities for successfully invading via a port are limited anyway.

Geisha I will usually use just to guard my Daimyo and Heirs, otherwise it is like deploying super weapons, where is the fun in conquering a whole bunch of Ronin?

Saving and reloading, If you have your economy going right it usually doesn't matter too much.
A bad harvest may slow you down a little, but it shouldn't stop you.

As for cheat codes,
If i don't want to be fiddling with my economics, but just have a nice quick campaing I may invoke muchkoku.
It doesn't neccessarily mean i'm going to go build build build crazy.

Besides,
Who Cares what you do in SP?
If a new player wants to use the cheats, let him, if it means he figures out how to beat the AI in battle that much faster, then he's going to get online that much faster.

And that means more fresh meat for all those who are trying to knock the HonourMeansNothing boys off the top of the ladder.
Weird how they've played no games since November?


------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon

[Che]

A vegades no es gens facil sense fer trampa, i no tots nosaltres tenim temps per jogar justament

[Doragon_Ajidrik]

The port invasion is kinda out of place in 1600 Japan. I dont know of any Clan landing huge amount of troops in a distant port during that period. Saving and loading a game if a bad harvest occured is such too much work for me. I dont know why people would care for a few hundred more Kokus.
On expert blitz the japanese countryside, the AI wont know what hit'em.

[solypsist]

wow. this "is port attack cheating?" subject has been reincarnating regularly since 1998....there must be about a dozen of these floating in cyberspace by now....