Results 1 to 30 of 223

Thread: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    A Barbarian Mercenary Member unseen11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Wow thnks man, i've been meaning to find out how to fix up some of the bugs in rome and you've helped me big time

    Just one question:

    You said that for Trader, the lower or equal to building requirements are steep to get Good Trader virtue so maybe the amount of buildings you have to build to get Good Trader are bugged and need to be edited?

  2. #2
    Member Member tai4ji2x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    unseen:

    i think it SHOULD take a lot to get such a good trait, so i would say that that aspect of it is NOT bugged

  3. #3
    A Barbarian Mercenary Member unseen11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Quote Originally Posted by tai4ji2x
    unseen:

    i think it SHOULD take a lot to get such a good trait, so i would say that that aspect of it is NOT bugged
    Really? having to build 24 less or equal to buildings to get level one Good Trader is allright too you? ok man what ever you say...

    though i have to admit im no expert in this whole subject anyway

  4. #4
    Member Member tai4ji2x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    huh? the first threshold is 6, not 24

    EDIT: oh, whoops, i was thinking about farmer. well, trader is a powerful trait - i think for most factions, once you get some sea trade going, you're making enough money as it is already. but like you said, to each their own ;)

    just another note - there are three building triggers for goodtrader: road, port, and trade. so you could easily have 3 points added in one turn from the building triggers alone. plus, there is also a trigger if your governor stays where there's a trading temple - and that alone is a big 12 point jump
    Last edited by tai4ji2x; 02-21-2005 at 10:26.

  5. #5
    A Barbarian Mercenary Member unseen11's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    yeh i suppose i didnt take the 3 trade opportunities in consideration but the level one roads might not count as trade.

    I suppose as long as when you get a new governors building upgrade and build a trade or port or road building up to its max level then the good trader trait won't be to hard to get (as long as the governor lives long enough to get it)

  6. #6

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Quote Originally Posted by unseen11
    Just one question:

    You said that for Trader, the lower or equal to building requirements are steep to get Good Trader virtue so maybe the amount of buildings you have to build to get Good Trader are bugged and need to be edited?
    I think tai4ji2x answered this pretty well here so i won't go over it again:

    Quote Originally Posted by tai4ji2x
    just another note - there are three building triggers for goodtrader: road, port, and trade. so you could easily have 3 points added in one turn from the building triggers alone. plus, there is also a trigger if your governor stays where there's a trading temple - and that alone is a big 12 point jump

    Quote Originally Posted by sinner
    Regarding the Farmer/Trader traits, I've been reading the triggers as follows...

    Trigger governing5
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

    Affects GoodFarmer 1 Chance 100

    To me that says when a building is completed and it's any level of farm then you have a 100% chance of getting 1 point towards GoodFarmer. This sounds logical to me, your governor oversees the building/improvement of his settlement's farmland and his agricultural skills improve.

    You are right that the game reads the default triggers in that manner. And that is precisely why they are broken. Let me explain.

    How many farms can you build that are greater than the first level of farms? Answer = 4.

    Now, what is the threshold for receiving the first level in GoodFarmer? It is 6.

    Therefore, you can see that with the default settings your governor will never receive the first level of GoodFarmer which is "Grower." Because you cannot break the threshold.

    This is why in default patch 1.2 you never see your Governor getting any GoodFarmer traits.

    I believe the corrections i posted fix this problem. Where if you prioritized farms, and then built 7 more buildings of equal or lesser value you would then meet the threshold and receive first level of the GoodFarmer trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinner
    Trigger governing6
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition not SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

    Affects BadFarmer 1 Chance 8

    While this says that when a building is completed and it's not a farm then you have a 8% chance of getting 1 point towards BadFarmer. Again it sounds logical to me, by effectively ignoring farming your governor's agricultural skills perhaps atrophy and he maybe becomes a bad farmer.

    There is what I consider a bug with the latter since that trigger occurs even if you've already built the farm for that level of settlement and so have no farm available to build. Perhaps that's why CA set the chance of acquiring GoodFarmer to 100% and BadFarmer to just 8%, even with the BadFarmer trigger occuring more frequently your governor should hopefully gain more GoodFarmer points and thus force the opposing BadFarmer trait to be ignored.
    Again, you are right about the game reading it that way, and again that is why it is bugged and you yourself take note that something is amiss. However, you did not account for the factor of thresholds. Lets look at it:

    The Threshold for BadFarmer is only 1 compared to the 6 for GoodFarmer. This means with the way you are reading (which is the way the game was handling it), that EVERY TIME you build a building that is NOT a farm, you get tested for BadFarmer. Since the threshold is only 1, that means you have an 8% chance of becoming a BadFarmer every time you complete a building.

    This is why in default 1.2 the governors are picking up BadFarmer traits very quickly. The buildings early on only take a couple turns to complete, so your governor is being tested every turn or every other turn for the trait.

    Again, the correction i suggested fixes this problem. And i explained how it does so in that post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jambo
    I'm in agreement with Sinner here.

    Reason being "trader", "roads", "port" and "farms" are only the lowest building in the corresponding upgrade tree. Respectively, the upgrade trees are "market", "hinterland_roads", "port_buildings" and "hinterland_farms".

    Therefore, I'm not sure how this factors into the calculations and reasoning here? For instance, what happens when the "> ______" no longer becomes relevant, e.g. for "> trader" and the trader becomes a market, forum, great_forum or curia?
    I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll try to stab at it anyway. You can tell me if you were talking about something else.

    As I said, it is my belief that the "SettlementBuildingFinished", the "trader", "roads, "port", and "farms" used in the triggers refer to any level of that respective building. e.g. "farms" can mean "land clearance", "communal farming", "crop rotation", "irrigation", and "latifundia."

    Have you had a chance to try the corrections yet?

    Also, I replied to your thread over at TWcenter.

  7. #7
    Member Member Ginger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Posts
    75

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Can I just say, this is a really useful thread, Keep up the good work guys!

    It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
    -Voltaire-

    Cry Havoc and let slip the FERRETS OF WAR!

  8. #8
    Squirrel Watcher Member Sinner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    390

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Quote Originally Posted by gregab25
    You are right that the game reads the default triggers in that manner. And that is precisely why they are broken. Let me explain.

    How many farms can you build that are greater than the first level of farms? Answer = 4.

    Now, what is the threshold for receiving the first level in GoodFarmer? It is 6.

    Therefore, you can see that with the default settings your governor will never receive the first level of GoodFarmer which is "Grower." Because you cannot break the threshold.
    You can quite easily break the threshold, simply move your governor to another settlement. Remember he only needs to be present the turn that the farm is completed so if you stagger the building times correctly you could have a governor circling around a group of cities arriving just before a farm is completed, thus gaining a point towards GoodFarmer every turn.

    Personally I don't like the logic of changing the trigger conditions to give GoodFarmer points on buildings other than farms. It might make acquiring the trait easier, but it's not for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregab25
    Again, you are right about the game reading it that way, and again that is why it is bugged and you yourself take note that something is amiss. However, you did not account for the factor of thresholds. Lets look at it:

    The Threshold for BadFarmer is only 1 compared to the 6 for GoodFarmer. This means with the way you are reading (which is the way the game was handling it), that EVERY TIME you build a building that is NOT a farm, you get tested for BadFarmer. Since the threshold is only 1, that means you have an 8% chance of becoming a BadFarmer every time you complete a building.

    This is why in default 1.2 the governors are picking up BadFarmer traits very quickly. The buildings early on only take a couple turns to complete, so your governor is being tested every turn or every other turn for the trait.
    The problem with the triggers lies in two areas: the most important being that the condition doesn't allow for the possibility that the appropriate building has already been built for that level for settlement, it's only then that the effects of the unbalanced thresholds become a problem. If you correct the first problem then the thresholds don't matter so much. Conveniently enough, there's already an official example shown in the handling of the BadMiner vice - simply add the condition that the Advisor is recommending a farm/trader is built, although like the BadMiner triggers this will probably require one trigger for every level of building.


    Quote Originally Posted by gregab25
    As I said, it is my belief that the "SettlementBuildingFinished", the "trader", "roads, "port", and "farms" used in the triggers refer to any level of that respective building. e.g. "farms" can mean "land clearance", "communal farming", "crop rotation", "irrigation", and "latifundia."
    I think you're wrong here... the label of farms simply refers to the first level of farming building, the label for all levels is hinterland_farms. Following your reasoning the label mines should mean all level of mines, however the two BadMiner triggers refer to the labels mines and mines+1, but why bother with mines+1 - the second level of mining buildings - if mines covers all levels?

    The use of the greater than & less than signs together with the equals in the conditions is how you refer to multiple buildings:
    - If you want all levels of farms, you can use '...>= farms'
    - If you wanted all but the first level of farms you could use either '...> farms' or '...>= farms+1'
    - If you wanted all but the highest level of farms you could use either '...< farms+4' or '...< = farms+3'.

    Examples of this occur with the triggers for temples which read '... and SettlementBuildingExists >= temple_of_fun_temple', ie. you only get the trigger on temples or greater, not on shrines.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Athens of the North, Scotland
    Posts
    712

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Greg, I've sent ya a PM. I'll try having a look into these in more detail and see if I can verify your theory. I do agree that the way both myself and Sinner have interpreted it doesn't make much sense.

    Cheers
    =MizuDoc Otomo=

  10. #10

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Okay, after Simetrical's good, albiet immature, post, and some retesting i must admit I am wrong on the farmer and trader corrections.

    I suggest everyone go back to the default triggers for farmer and trader.

    However, in the default setting if you desire to become a good farmer or trader you will want to build all other buildings before the farm or trade buildings.

    This seems counter intuitive to me personally, and was why i thought the trigger was bugged.

    This led me to initially reversing the > = sign to a < = sign in the triggers. However, this did not reverse the results in game.

    This led me to the using the NOT condition and > sign because i believed it to be the same arguement as using a < = to sign.

    Which has now been shown to be incorrect.

    So I do apologize for my mistake and any confusion it led to. I hope you will bear in mind i was trying to help the community with what i thought was a bug.

    To follow up I would like to ask 2 questions that maybe the community would be willing to answer in layman's terms:

    1) Does it makes sense that a governor becomes a GoodFarmer or GoodTrader by ignoring building the Farm and Trade buildings?

    2) Would someone please look into or explain why reversing the > = to a < = sign in the triggers does not reverse the results in game? Especially in relation to the farming triggers. Is a = < arguement a vaild arguement that might work?

    Again. Apologies.

    And Thanks.

  11. #11
    Unpatched Member hrvojej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    It depends...
    Posts
    2,070

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Quote Originally Posted by gregab25
    1) Does it makes sense that a governor becomes a GoodFarmer or GoodTrader by ignoring building the Farm and Trade buildings?
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on the contrary you *only* get points in GoodFarmer for building the farm buildings, any of them; you get points in GoodTrader for building either traders, roads or ports. It is, however, very unlikely to gain good traits due to high thresholds (unlike the bad traits, and this is why I had modified the thresholds in a first place - the game is in effect punishing you for being successful).

    edit: And I'd really like to know the answer to your 2nd question as well. Maybe you used the first level of farms, and both < = and > = include that one?
    Last edited by hrvojej; 02-22-2005 at 00:38.
    Some people get by with a little understanding
    Some people get by with a whole lot more - A. Eldritch

  12. #12
    Member Member tai4ji2x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    so BOTH gregab25's attempted fix AND the default triggers are wrong? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  13. #13

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    OK, I'll *try* to explain how I *think* these triggers work, in layman's terms as requested. SettlementBuildingFinished returns the name of the building just built. If that name is not part of the hinterland_farms build tree, a value of zero assigned to whatever temp variable is being used. If the name is part of the hinterland_farms build tree, the temp variable is assigned the number corresponding to that level farm. This number is then compared to the number corresponding to the building name on the other side of the arguement, namely farms (=1). The building name on the other side is also what specifies which build tree to use for the evaluation.
    So, if you build a port, SBF = 0 and farms = 1, so the trigger goes to false and nothing happens. If you build a farm, 1=1 and you get a point for good farmer. For farms+1, 2>1 and you get another point. So maxing the farms in a settlement should give you 5 points. Why is the threshold 6? I have no clue. Chalk it up to piss poor playtesting, not that there's any OTHER evidence of that.
    "Let us wrestle with the ineffable and see if we may not, in fact, eff it after all." -Dirk Gently, character of the late great Douglas Adams.

  14. #14
    Squirrel Watcher Member Sinner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    390

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    Quote Originally Posted by tai4ji2x
    just another note - there are three building triggers for goodtrader: road, port, and trade. so you could easily have 3 points added in one turn from the building triggers alone.
    You can't get 3 points in one turn by building because you can only complete one building per turn. Instead you'd be able to get a maximum 3 points per level of settlement (excluding temple effects), and once you've got those 3 you have to wait until the settlement grows to the next level or move your governor to another settlement.

    Regarding the Farmer/Trader traits, I've been reading the triggers as follows...

    Trigger governing5
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

    Affects GoodFarmer 1 Chance 100


    To me that says when a building is completed and it's any level of farm then you have a 100% chance of getting 1 point towards GoodFarmer. This sounds logical to me, your governor oversees the building/improvement of his settlement's farmland and his agricultural skills improve.

    Trigger governing6
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition not SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

    Affects BadFarmer 1 Chance 8


    While this says that when a building is completed and it's not a farm then you have a 8% chance of getting 1 point towards BadFarmer. Again it sounds logical to me, by effectively ignoring farming your governor's agricultural skills perhaps atrophy and he maybe becomes a bad farmer.

    There is what I consider a bug with the latter since that trigger occurs even if you've already built the farm for that level of settlement and so have no farm available to build. Perhaps that's why CA set the chance of acquiring GoodFarmer to 100% and BadFarmer to just 8%, even with the BadFarmer trigger occuring more frequently your governor should hopefully gain more GoodFarmer points and thus force the opposing BadFarmer trait to be ignored.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Jambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Athens of the North, Scotland
    Posts
    712

    Default Re: Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

    I'm in agreement with Sinner here.

    Reason being "trader", "roads", "port" and "farms" are only the lowest building in the corresponding upgrade tree. Respectively, the upgrade trees are "market", "hinterland_roads", "port_buildings" and "hinterland_farms".

    Therefore, I'm not sure how this factors into the calculations and reasoning here? For instance, what happens when the "> ______" no longer becomes relevant, e.g. for "> trader" and the trader becomes a market, forum, great_forum or curia?
    =MizuDoc Otomo=

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO