Traits that are bugged in 1.2 with fixes. Part 1: Scarred, Farmer, Trader

[Jambo]

Ah, well spotted mate! Maybe GeneralHPLostRatioinBattle > 0.2 for the shieldbearer will work just fine then! ;)

[Jambo]

Remember the biggest bug of them all:

The fact that traits obtained from the battle map are giving twice their supposed amount towards the trait's threshold - this means super fast climbing of the traits, e.g. gaining the first two levels of GoodCommander, BattleScarred, RomanHero after just one battle.

To counter this, double the threshold of traits you can receive on the battlefield, particularly the combat related ones as these can really offset the game's balance in favour of the human. Alternatively, look for the next release of the CVP. :)

[therother]

The fact that traits obtained from the battle map are giving twice their supposed amount towards the trait's threshold - this means super fast climbing of the traits, e.g. gaining the first two levels of GoodCommander, BattleScarred, RomanHero after just one battle.

Sorry, trait newbie butting in, but has this been confirmed as a bug in the code, rather than in the traits file? Could there perhaps be another explanation? For instance, have you doubled the "Standard_Battle_Any_Victory_VnV_Trigger" to "Affects GoodCommander 4 Chance 100" to see if your general becomes a Great Commander (Threshold 8) after one battle? I ask as after reading a few threads about the scarred issue, I was surprised to get only the first level (Been in the Wars) after a test battle for something else (the effect of Command).

[gregab25]

Sorry, trait newbie butting in, but has this been confirmed as a bug in the code, rather than in the traits file? Could there perhaps be another explanation? For instance, have you doubled the "Standard_Battle_Any_Victory_VnV_Trigger" to "Affects GoodCommander 4 Chance 100" to see if your general becomes a Great Commander (Threshold 8) after one battle? I ask as after reading a few threads about the scarred issue, I was surprised to get only the first level (Been in the Wars) after a test battle for something else

Sorry, beyond the obvious Scarred trait bug, i had not heard about a problem with the GoodCommander or RomanHero traits. So I don't know much about them.

Briefly looking at the triggers reveals there is one trigger for GoodCommander and it seems in order.

The RomanHero Trait has 3 seperate triggers 2 with a 20% chance and one with 15% i think. So, it is not surprising that your general would receive this trait quickly.

I did not see any doubling of the triggers left by the omition of the condition Culture Type Non Roman. Which was why you got tested twice in the case of the Scarred trait.

Maybe Jambo has more information.

[Jambo]

It's particularly noticeable with the combat traits (or rather easier to test). Try a battle with a fresh naive general (no GoodCommander trait). If he wins and the odds make him elligible to receive the 1 Chance 100 in the GoodCommander trait, what you find is that he skips Confident Commander (+1) which has threshold 1, and goes straight to Good Commander (+2) which has threshold 2.

On occasion it's actually possible to get straight to Superior Attacker/Defender (threshold 4) from just one battle. The battle has to be a crushing victory with battle odds of >=0.5 to less than 1.5. According to the character_traits file, this awards GoodAttacker/Defender 2 Chance 100. Due to the doubling bug this gives 4 Chance 100 instead.

This isn't for autoresolved battles, only those fought out on the battle map.

[tai4ji2x]

ugh... this is SOOOO confusing i wonder if there will ever be a definitive answer...

anyways, simetrical, i don't understand this:

gregab25 therefore thought that the . Unfortunately, this made every non-farm building increase his traits, tricking him into thinking that his interpretation of EDCT.txt was right.

seems like your sentence got cut off?

[Pode]

Bugger. I was really hoping double tests for romans would be the explanation for the double awarding "feature". There's no good way to mod around this one. Doubling the threshold prevents the AI from leveling up appropriately, and God knows it needs all the help it can get. Halving the odds for each comabt trigger would be slightly better, since it would tend to keep AI and player generals mired down in mediocrity, but where's the fun in that?

[Jambo]

double post somehow....




EDit: may as well use this slot.

Pode, there's a cunning strategy that the CVP uses, which helps this unfortunate doubling problem. Basically, it uses the BadCommander traits as a means to combat the meteortic rise that's possible with the GoodCommander trait. Essentially, the higher a general is in the GoodCommander trait, the greater the BadCommander award he'll receive should he lose a battle. For instance, a general at level 4 GoodCommander will have a bigger fall in the trait should he lose a battle than a mediocre commander at level two would get.

[hrvojej]

Sooo... Do you think that maybe adding "and AdviseBuild >= farms" to BadFarmer trigger would counter the apparent abundancy of this trait while also preserving the actual probabilities?

[Kraxis]

This is getting highly confusing... I'm lost.

Simetrical what did you do? And what was the effect?
Temple of Ceres grants 3 points out of 6 right? And building another farm adds 1 point? But that is only 4 out of 6 so how come you got the trait?

[tai4ji2x]

Pode, there's a cunning strategy that the CVP uses, which helps this unfortunate doubling problem. Basically, it uses the BadCommander traits as a means to combat the meteortic rise that's possible with the GoodCommander trait. Essentially, the higher a general is in the GoodCommander trait, the greater the BadCommander award he'll receive should he lose a battle. For instance, a general at level 4 GoodCommander will have a bigger fall in the trait should he lose a battle than a mediocre commander at level two would get.

won't this make the AI's generals worse?

[hrvojej]

won't this make the AI's generals worse?

I think so too. I rarely (if ever) lose with 4stars or better, since they command my largest, main, armies. The AI, however, is prone to have them wondering alone etc. Unfortunatelly, from what I can gather this is not the best fix for doubling IMHO.

[Simetrical]

The results are in. I modded the file as I said, then built a Shrine to Ceres in Arretium. The governor gained no traits. Then I built a Communal Farming—and the governor gained Grower. Bingo. Question answered.

But gregab25 might be a little confused at this. After all, he's been playing for a while with his mod, and he's been gaining GoodFarmer traits. If I'm right, then he should have been setting the trait trigger so that it only rewarded him for building the first level of farms and no other buildings—i.e., it should be extremely unlikely that he'd gain even Grower. So what gives?

The answer is that he's confused ≯ with ≤—"not greater than" with "less than or equal to." He assumed that they were equivalent, when they're not. What's the difference? None, if you're only dealing with elements in an ordered set. gregab's belief was that both terms represented numbers, so that's fine—all real numbers are elements of the same ordered set. If a real number isn't greater than another, it has to be either less than or equal to.

But if you read my (admittedly a bit technical) explanation of how the condition in question actually functions, you may have realized that not all elements in question need to be in the same ordered sets. If the ordered set in question is hinterland_farms and I build a dirt road, the road isn't greater than or equal to the farm—but it's not less than it, either, since they aren't in the same ordered set. ~(Roads ⋚ farms) in the same way that ~(i ⋚ 42). (Dang, I wish Unicode specified a "not greater than, less than, or equal to" symbol.)

gregab25 therefore thought that the ≺= operator was bugged, so he changed it to NOT >. Unfortunately, this made every non-farm building increase his traits, tricking him into thinking that his interpretation of EDCT.txt was right.

Maybe you just made a typo but to be sure i'll correct you. According to my approach, building any nonfarm building equal to or LESS THAN the farm level would cause the governor to gain a level.

Of course, you're right. Typo.

Sorry, trait newbie butting in, but has this been confirmed as a bug in the code, rather than in the traits file? Could there perhaps be another explanation?

I don't think so. There aren't any duplicate triggers that could explain the observed phenomena.

I ask as after reading a few threads about the scarred issue, I was surprised to get only the first level (Been in the Wars) after a test battle for something else . . .

It's not certain that you'll gain any Scarred trait at all after battle—most trait triggers have a percentage chance associated with them. The trigger could have been checked twice, but only returned positive once.

-Simetrical

[gregab25]

the more i think about it, i don't think they'll ever tell us, since if they admit that something's screwed up, that would justify a patch... and we wouldn't want that, now would we?

Hehe, are you being tongue'n'cheek tai4ji2x? I'm not that cynical.

Besides didn't your momma teach you can catch more flies with sugar?
Hehe.