Fixing Phalanx Behaviour

[Red Harvest]

I think I'm nearly done with my phalanx edits. There are two problems with the phalanx:
1. Cav pushes a phalanx back easily and penetrates the spears nearly immediately, sending the phalangites to their secondary weapons, and in short order to meet their sundry gods.
2. Some heavy infantry easily pushes it back as well. Again, the phalangites inflict few kills before switching to secondary, and then being hurried along to meet their gods.

From my testing I've ended up taking a combined approach to make the phalanx a bit tougher (but still not overly tough vs. either.) The first key is to increase phalanx soldier mass. They move as a unit, so this is the only "rank" effect you are going to get from CA. Many units are using a base value of 1, although the better ones use 1.3. However, some heavy sword infantry uses 1.3 or 1.5. And horses are 3.5 to 6. So we get the improbable situation of these sword and cav units shoving back the phalangite ranks. I can't cut the cav. mass much because doing so really hampers them vs. swords. So I increased hoplite/phalanx mass. This really helps the phalangites/hoplites in combat without doing anything wierd. I reduced horse mass only slightly.

Adding mount effects for phalanx units: I copied the +4 mount effects from other anti-cav spear units. This is probably still inadequate since heavy cav can still beat some high end phalanx units, but it helps considerably. +8 might be the answer. That (+8) is what I used for non-phalanx spears in 1.1 and found it reasonable on both sides.

I also added a negative mount effect for most sword/axe/falx infantry, and skirmishers/slingers/archers with high secondary attack--but not Forresters as they have spears for 2nd weapons. I used horse -4 and camel -2. This makes sword units a bit easier to kill with cav, instead of having them beat up on the heavy cav.

Here are the values I used for mass:
Militia hoplites and levy pikemen and nubian spearmen, mass = 1.3
Mid pack hoplites and pikemen, mass = 1.6
Elite hoplites and pikemen, mass = 1.8

[Kraxis]

That is basically a mirror of what I have done...

Only I have given the good phalanxes an added bonus vs chariots (+8) and have not given swords any negatives to mounts (shouldn't you give a negative to chariots?). Also the hoplites and heavy spears have 1.5 and pikemen+ have 1.8.

And I haven't upped the normal spearbonus. How does that work out for you? I'm not so much for dabbling with that yet, so you might push me into that area. Anyway I do agree that normal spears don't work too well, especially considering the slower attacks. Have given most spears a better charge, but that only gives a bonus vs infantry (it is definately not worth it to countercharge cavalry).

[Simetrical]

Thanks! I noticed this behavior, but had no idea how to fix it. This will be a great help to me in my current Greek campaign! It was really ridiculous when a simple heavy infantry charge completely tore up my phalanxes.

-Simetrical

[hrvojej]

I was just wondering, have you guys done anything to the non-phalanx spearmen mass as well? I'm wondering if they in fact need something like that, or maybe just need their lethality changed from 0.73 to 1.

Edit: And while I'm asking, have you modified the mass of the German spear warbands as well?

[Quietus]

Personally, I've never routed phalanx frontally, they always kill my cavs on contact. I've seen them use secondary weapon but that's during flanking.

These must be limited to elite heavy cavalry units. These guys can wipe units in a charge.

[Red Harvest]

Personally, I've never routed phalanx frontally, they always kill my cavs on contact. I've seen them use secondary weapon but that's during flanking.

These must be limited to elite heavy cavalry units. These guys can wipe units in a charge.

I'm using custom battle, medium, grassland, large units. Load up Roman Cav or Legionary Cav, and try charging 1 vs. 1 against a Punic Phalanx. I know the Legionary cav handily whipped Poeni this way. In real life they would be cavalry kebobs. Praetorians will even beat Sacred Band!

And the mid pack Roman cav will tear up phalanx pikeman if the cav are heading downslope at them. This is with the horse jumping fix installed too (I did tests without, then put it in.)

Equites nearly take out Libyan spearmen...and that is just not right.

[Red Harvest]

I was just wondering, have you guys done anything to the non-phalanx spearmen mass as well? I'm wondering if they in fact need something like that, or maybe just need their lethality changed from 0.73 to 1.

Edit: And while I'm asking, have you modified the mass of the German spear warbands as well?

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

I left the Germans at default 1.2 mass. The reason is that they are such a basic unit and probably were not a true phalanx, plus they have pretty good stats and a large unit size. Historically, the Roman infantry seem to have been able to wade into them a bit better frontally, so I didn't give them "the juice." I took some pity on Egypt's weak phalanx units (but not too much...) and gave them the same mass increments as others. Here I considered that they really represent a ptolemaic hybrid and they don't have much armour. They are still going to get carved up against any decent infantry, so at least they should have the opportunity to push a little. (The Pharoah's Guards got the 1.8 treatment of course, Nile = 1.6, Nubian 1.3.)

[thisismyusername]

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

I left the Germans at default 1.2 mass. The reason is that they are such a basic unit and probably were not a true phalanx, plus they have pretty good stats and a large unit size. Historically, the Roman infantry seem to have been able to wade into them a bit better frontally, so I didn't give them "the juice." I took some pity on Egypt's weak phalanx units (but not too much...) and gave them the same mass increments as others. Here I considered that they really represent a ptolemaic hybrid and they don't have much armour. They are still going to get carved up against any decent infantry, so at least they should have the opportunity to push a little. (The Pharoah's Guards got the 1.8 treatment of course, Nile = 1.6, Nubian 1.3.)

Red Harvest, is there a way for u to post your export units file thingie so that those of us who are modding challenged might be able to try out your solutions?

[hrvojej]

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

But you left the mass of the regular, non-phalanx spears (such as samnites and libyans) intact, right?
Sorry for nitpicking, I'm just wondering since I've been fiddling with the 0.73 lethality of the spear in attempts to get something similar.

[Grand Duke Vytautas]

Please guys, post how exactly should I mod this phalanx behaviour, cause it's realy realistic what are you talking about . Thanks indeed.

P.S. How about cavalry unit size? Isn't the default size too big?

[Darius]

This sounds like an awesome solution for the usual phalanx problems. However I was wondering if you noticed something that I think is related. I've seen one unit charge my phalanx, but they held, but the next unit and the unit after that behind them, seem to just use their sheer momentum to essentially shove the first unit right into the midst of my phalanx. When the unit was by itself however, it just couldnt get past the spear wall almost at all.

[hrvojej]

Please guys, post how exactly should I mod this phalanx behaviour, cause it's realy realistic what are you talking about . Thanks indeed.

P.S. How about cavalry unit size? Isn't the default size too big?

Though I wasn't the one who thought of this, I hope nobody would mind if I post the how-to.

- backup then open export_descr_unit.txt file
- search for "phalanx" to find all the units that have phalanx ability
- in the line "soldier" for those units modify the last number to your satisfaction; for example, here is the line for poeni infantry:

soldier carthaginian_heavy_infantry, 40, 0, 1.3

Change 1.3 to 1.8 and you'll have a heavier phalanx that won't be as easily pushed back. The minor drawback that I can see would be that if you charge your hoplites/phalangites in standard formation at someone, they would crash through those units since they are much heavier now, and they'll be more resilient to charges in standard formation as well. In other words, they'll be heavy when fighting even if they are not in phalanx formation. So, keep them in phalanx when fighting to prevent the sumo-wrestler effect this change might have.

[Red Harvest]

But you left the mass of the regular, non-phalanx spears (such as samnites and libyans) intact, right?
Sorry for nitpicking, I'm just wondering since I've been fiddling with the 0.73 lethality of the spear in attempts to get something similar.

Yes, I left their mass alone, and I didn't touch their lethality either.

[Kraxis]

Isn't that lethality the killspeed? How fast the unit will attack...

[Red Harvest]

Yes, the mass applies to them no matter what the formation. Even without knowing the details of the engine we can see that it would make sense to have a mass multiplier when *in phalanx* rather than all the time. However, we work with the tools we are given.

Rank bonuses are absent so we simulate rank effects with mass. This has the drawback mentioned, it applies all the time. That is why I stopped at 1.8. In the vanilla game peasants are often 0.7, and skirmishers/archers 0.8. The intent is clearly to make the loose units easy to push around and that is logical.

This isn't going to fix everything either. Even with these changes, my faction leader's bodyguard still did a number on greek hoplites in a frontal attack in city streets, on med/med. He lost 5 men and killed 80. He did have a couple of stars (test campaign 2nd or 3rd turn, no previous combat) but he was up against 1 experience hoplites (not militia hops, not armoured hops.)

Something I have not yet confirmed but am beginning to suspect: I think one of the problems is that there *might* be only a single hit box in front of the front ranks spear tips. I've noticed that kills happen at the end of the spear wall, but not closer in where 2nd and 3rd ranks would be at work. The kills closer in come from swords. Seeing several spears sticking all the way through a horse for 30 seconds looks a bit odd.... The 1st row of spears would be useless here, but the 2nd and 3rd ranks should each have a capacity (though progressively diminished) to prevent the 1st ranks from switching to swords, and either kill or generate some push back. In this interval, the intruder would get in some licks as well.

[tai4ji2x]

Seeing several spears sticking all the way through a horse for 30 seconds looks a bit odd....

:sigh: so true. so true

[Pode]

And the mid pack Roman cav will tear up phalanx pikeman if the cav are heading downslope at them.

I believe this in due to the problem you mentioned about there being only one kill location for the spears of a phalanx, coupled with the animation for them being pointed straight ahead rather than parallel to local earth. If the phalanx is facing uphill, their spears are pointed 90 degrees to gravity, therefore into the hillside if the hill is steep enough, and any unit can charge over them without loss. This is most noticeable for cavalry because the center of mass of the horse rider combination is higher than for a man, so it takes less slope for the phalanx's weapons to be ineffective. Word to the wise: always use phalanx on relatively flat ground. Even when facing downhill, if the slope is great enough, an enemy can approach to inside their minimum range without passing through their kill zone. Of course, finding flat ground in Greece is a bit of a trick, but there you are.

[Red Harvest]

Egads, I hadn't realized it was that bad, Pode. I will have to take a look at this. The other possibility is the mismatch of high attack for uphill and low attack for down hill. The charge seems to treat that as meaning the spears in essence are not even there.

I did some more testing of this today and noticed that the 2nd/3rd ranks sometimes are killing and pushing back. But a lot of times they are rather stationary when it looks like they should be engaging. So they might be doing some limited support, but not enough to preserve the formation against comparable heavy infantry or medium cavalry. It is not so much that I think they should be an impenetrable wall, as it is that they seem to lack the "friction" they need (especially since during a cavalry charge, several horses usually squirt through the ranks somewhere, as well as the ones that run past on the flank.)

[Simetrical]

I've definitely seen second rows of hoplites use their spears in hoplite-vs.-hoplite combat. Other than that, I can't say.

-Simetrical

[Red Harvest]

I've definitely seen second rows of hoplites use their spears in hoplite-vs.-hoplite combat. Other than that, I can't say.

-Simetrical

Funny you should mention that. Hoplite vs. hoplite things are holding up better. They really fight it out and stay in decent stand off for the most part. Thinks get vigorous when someone crosses inside the main kill zone.

[Kraxis]

It is certain that all the points that protude from the formation can kill. It is just interesting that cavalry can somehow manage to punch through all 3-4 ranks and still survive only to die to a weaker sword a few seconds later (often that happens).
One gets the feeling that charging cavalry is the opposite of MTW where Spearunits in Hold Formation eliminated any cavalry charge head on. Now it seems that charging cavalry eliminated the phalanxability.

[hrvojej]

Try this (after you have modified the mass):
- change the attack frequency and lethality of companions to something like 75, 0.73 or 100, 0.73
- leave the pike stats intact, but change the sword stats of a phalanx in the same way as mentioned above

I think this gives an improved result. If the second row of pikes won't fight, then we can make the first row fight more frequently than the opposition. If they get past that, the phalangites will fight like regular guys. And if all my units have 75, 073 while pikes have the lethality of 1 and are able to stab much faster, you bet that I'll think twice before charging anything into the front of the unmodded phalanx pikes.

[Pode]

Wish I could take the credit for finding it, Red. More than that, I wish I could give proper credit to the guy who did, but memory is failing in my old age ( or maybe had something to do with it). I do remember him saying what tipped him to it was a unit of light horse frontally charging a phalanx downhill and taking zero casualties in the initial charge. He concluded that the spear doesn't really exist, only the one set of spear points, and the animations weren't up to positioning those points relative to local ground level. However, he did use this knowledge to document a nifty exploit. He strung a single or double line of archers just in FRONT of his phalanx line, inside their dead zone, set all units to stand ground, and the archers were able to fire at point blank range while the phalanx protected them. Kinda confirms that the second and third rows are just for looks.

[Red Harvest]

Now that I have further test results, I will append them here.

1. Phalanx spears do get some sort of discounted kill rate on slopes. I do not know the formula, but they will kill. Unfortunately, with vanilla stats the effect is largely negligible. Hence, the indication of mounts charging though the spears with virtually no losses. Proof: try a very high primary attack or charge bonus, and they will kill quite a few on the initial charge.

2. The primary weapon phalanx charge bonus applies against the unit charging the pikes. EDIT: Nope, it doesn't--I've been retesting and the previous conclusive results have evaporated. Arrgggg... Scratch the phalanx charge bonus.

3. The primary weapon charge bonus does not apply when attacking out of phalanx.

4. And the secondary weapon charge bonus also does not seem to apply in this situation, despite the unit switching to swords. I used a value of 49 for a secondary charge bonus and in testing charging phalangites scored no kills vs. cav until melee was well established.

Conclusion: higher charge values for the primary attack seem to recommend themselves. The initial clash is less effective than it should be, but I am hesitant to increase the primary attack values since that might skew auto calc, unit recruitment by the AI, etc. However, the charge bonus boost applying only to the enemy charging it seems logical, particularly in light of the poor melee characteristics of the phalanx in the engine at present.

[conon394]

Red
Have you implemented the revised version of the horse jump fix? It seems to reduce the cavalry penetration of the phalanx somewhat.

On the charge bonus, I tried setting my armored hoplites to 25 (PW charge bonus) and compared to the original stats. I can't really see any difference. What units are you using? I used Armenian Cat. Cav. attacking Greek armored hoplites.

[tai4ji2x]

CA really just should have made it an attribute of cavalry units that they will get spooked when charging spears, and will have a high probabilty of simply turning around and refusing orders. only the most elite cavalry would have some amount of immunity to this.

[Red Harvest]

Red
Have you implemented the revised version of the horse jump fix? It seems to reduce the cavalry penetration of the phalanx somewhat.

On the charge bonus, I tried setting my armored hoplites to 25 (PW charge bonus) and compared to the original stats. I can't really see any difference. What units are you using? I used Armenian Cat. Cav. attacking Greek armored hoplites.

Yes, I've got the horse jump fix for 1.2. I've got a number of adjustments now, and I just did a quick check with +2 PW charge added for hoplite type spears, and +3 for long pikes. (But remember I also have upped mass for the phalanx, and I've given them +6 vs. horse/chariot/camel.) Initial test with a generals bodyguard gave some nice initial kills so initial impressions are favorable. I haven't tested the big cats yet. They have such high armour that they will probably still punch through the pikes rather easily. If one accepts the idea of them successfully charging the pikes, I don't have trouble with the concept of them winning in melee.

Honestly, with the way they have cav set up (with mass effects, and with the rapid penetration) the phalangites need some considerable bonuses specific to cav to have a chance. The heavy cav have very high armour stats.

I agree with tai4ji2x, that the cav need to do some sort of "TQ" (technical quality) check before charging pikes. If the pikes are disordered, then by all means, let them hammer away. Even if the cav unit is heavy and has fresh morale, it should be taking some massive morale penalties and offense penalties for being in front of the pikes. It would be nice to see the cav charges break at times without suffering the massive routing losses. Instead, it would be an intermediate "fallback and regroup" behaviour. They would essentially be out of player control until they regrouped at some distance from the pikes (or anything else that broke their charge, but didn't fully rout them.) Once they hit this safe distance they would attempt to rally. Sort of like a "skirmish mode." This could also allow "regroup and recharge" functionality.

Cavalry charges throughout history were frequently broken, but without utter destruction of the unit. That is more the norm than the exception. It is sort of a given, but they regroup and are able to pursue further commands--unless they are really low morale/green/or undisciplined...or if they are hotly pursued by other cav.

[Epistolary Richard]

On the topic of controlling cavalry, many battles were lost because - after the initial charge - many generals couldn't stop their cavalry (and indeed their infantry) from chasing routers off the battlefield. There should be a similar kind of command check to halt a pursuit and bring them back under player control.

[BeeSting]

I thought deeper ranks won the push and shove war? So having a deeper rank means nothing in this game?

[Puzz3D]

Without the jumping horses I'm getting results such as, greek light lancers cannot beat Liberian spearmen, but Greek heavy cavalry can with two charges and Companion cavalry can with one charge. Poeni infantry can withstand charges from all of these three cav types, and even withstood 4 charges by Praetorian cav with about 1 to 1 kill ratio.

The 46% anti-cav bonus in RTW does seem rather weak. MTW spears had 200% and pikes 300% anti-cav bonus, and STW yari infantry had a 400% anti-cav bonus. In Samurai Wars, yari infantry have a 500% anti-cav bonus.