Fixing Phalanx Behaviour

**Red Harvest** · 02-21-2005, 09:59

I think I'm nearly done with my phalanx edits. There are two problems with the phalanx:
1. Cav pushes a phalanx back easily and penetrates the spears nearly immediately, sending the phalangites to their secondary weapons, and in short order to meet their sundry gods.
2. Some heavy infantry easily pushes it back as well. Again, the phalangites inflict few kills before switching to secondary, and then being hurried along to meet their gods.

From my testing I've ended up taking a combined approach to make the phalanx a bit tougher (but still not overly tough vs. either.) The first key is to increase phalanx soldier mass. They move as a unit, so this is the only "rank" effect you are going to get from CA. Many units are using a base value of 1, although the better ones use 1.3. However, some heavy sword infantry uses 1.3 or 1.5. And horses are 3.5 to 6. So we get the improbable situation of these sword and cav units shoving back the phalangite ranks. I can't cut the cav. mass much because doing so really hampers them vs. swords. So I increased hoplite/phalanx mass. This really helps the phalangites/hoplites in combat without doing anything wierd. I reduced horse mass only slightly.

Adding mount effects for phalanx units: I copied the +4 mount effects from other anti-cav spear units. This is probably still inadequate since heavy cav can still beat some high end phalanx units, but it helps considerably. +8 might be the answer. That (+8) is what I used for non-phalanx spears in 1.1 and found it reasonable on both sides.

I also added a negative mount effect for most sword/axe/falx infantry, and skirmishers/slingers/archers with high secondary attack--but not Forresters as they have spears for 2nd weapons. I used horse -4 and camel -2. This makes sword units a bit easier to kill with cav, instead of having them beat up on the heavy cav.

Here are the values I used for mass:
Militia hoplites and levy pikemen and nubian spearmen, mass = 1.3
Mid pack hoplites and pikemen, mass = 1.6
Elite hoplites and pikemen, mass = 1.8

**Kraxis** · 02-21-2005, 21:34

That is basically a mirror of what I have done...

Only I have given the good phalanxes an added bonus vs chariots (+8) and have not given swords any negatives to mounts (shouldn't you give a negative to chariots?). Also the hoplites and heavy spears have 1.5 and pikemen+ have 1.8.

And I haven't upped the normal spearbonus. How does that work out for you? I'm not so much for dabbling with that yet, so you might push me into that area.

Anyway I do agree that normal spears don't work too well, especially considering the slower attacks. Have given most spears a better charge, but that only gives a bonus vs infantry (it is definately not worth it to countercharge cavalry).

**Simetrical** · 02-21-2005, 23:34

Thanks! I noticed this behavior, but had no idea how to fix it. This will be a great help to me in my current Greek campaign! It was really ridiculous when a simple heavy infantry charge completely tore up my phalanxes.

-Simetrical

**hrvojej** · 02-22-2005, 01:46

I was just wondering, have you guys done anything to the non-phalanx spearmen mass as well? I'm wondering if they in fact need something like that, or maybe just need their lethality changed from 0.73 to 1.

Edit: And while I'm asking, have you modified the mass of the German spear warbands as well?

**Quietus** · 02-22-2005, 02:31

Personally, I've never routed phalanx frontally, they always kill my cavs on contact. I've seen them use secondary weapon but that's during flanking.

These must be limited to elite heavy cavalry units. These guys can wipe units in a charge.

**Red Harvest** · 02-22-2005, 05:36

Originally Posted by Quietus

Personally, I've never routed phalanx frontally, they always kill my cavs on contact. I've seen them use secondary weapon but that's during flanking.

These must be limited to elite heavy cavalry units. These guys can wipe units in a charge.

I'm using custom battle, medium, grassland, large units. Load up Roman Cav or Legionary Cav, and try charging 1 vs. 1 against a Punic Phalanx. I know the Legionary cav handily whipped Poeni this way. In real life they would be cavalry kebobs. Praetorians will even beat Sacred Band!

And the mid pack Roman cav will tear up phalanx pikeman if the cav are heading downslope at them. This is with the horse jumping fix installed too (I did tests without, then put it in.)

Equites nearly take out Libyan spearmen...and that is just not right.

**Red Harvest** · 02-22-2005, 05:51

Originally Posted by hrvojej

I was just wondering, have you guys done anything to the non-phalanx spearmen mass as well? I'm wondering if they in fact need something like that, or maybe just need their lethality changed from 0.73 to 1.

Edit: And while I'm asking, have you modified the mass of the German spear warbands as well?

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

I left the Germans at default 1.2 mass. The reason is that they are such a basic unit and probably were not a true phalanx, plus they have pretty good stats and a large unit size. Historically, the Roman infantry seem to have been able to wade into them a bit better frontally, so I didn't give them "the juice." I took some pity on Egypt's weak phalanx units (but not too much...) and gave them the same mass increments as others. Here I considered that they really represent a ptolemaic hybrid and they don't have much armour. They are still going to get carved up against any decent infantry, so at least they should have the opportunity to push a little. (The Pharoah's Guards got the 1.8 treatment of course, Nile = 1.6, Nubian 1.3.)

**thisismyusername** · 02-22-2005, 06:08

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

I left the Germans at default 1.2 mass. The reason is that they are such a basic unit and probably were not a true phalanx, plus they have pretty good stats and a large unit size. Historically, the Roman infantry seem to have been able to wade into them a bit better frontally, so I didn't give them "the juice." I took some pity on Egypt's weak phalanx units (but not too much...) and gave them the same mass increments as others. Here I considered that they really represent a ptolemaic hybrid and they don't have much armour. They are still going to get carved up against any decent infantry, so at least they should have the opportunity to push a little. (The Pharoah's Guards got the 1.8 treatment of course, Nile = 1.6, Nubian 1.3.)

Red Harvest, is there a way for u to post your export units file thingie so that those of us who are modding challenged might be able to try out your solutions?

**hrvojej** · 02-22-2005, 06:16

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I just set all the mount effects for both the phalanx and non phalanx spearmen to +6 a few minutes ago. However, I did not do this for the basic spear warband units or town militia, or other less disciplined spear types that were lacking anti-cav bonuses already.

But you left the mass of the regular, non-phalanx spears (such as samnites and libyans) intact, right?
Sorry for nitpicking, I'm just wondering since I've been fiddling with the 0.73 lethality of the spear in attempts to get something similar.

**GTS** · 02-27-2005, 21:12

can you please tell me how to change the colors of some units (roman´s archer auxillia in carthaginian colors). thanks for help

by gts

**Red Harvest** · 02-27-2005, 21:57

Puzz3D,

I've rerun the test through a full 3rd series with vanilla stats. I think I understand the problem, there is something you might be missing about the way the AI uses the cav. It is actually enhancing the AI problems. The Praetorian cav cav are failing to charge in AI control until they are nearly at the end of the pikes (or in some cases in contact with them.) They are getting almost no benefit from that kind of charge. It doesn't matter whether I am walking with the phalanx, or stationary, I seem to get the phalanx charge bonus for the contact. Despite this blunder by the AI, they eventually get past the pikes, and start inflicting casualties at an ever increasing pace. When they get down to about 40 of their own, they inexplicably withdraw, a fatal blunder. At that point they will lose. Note: I have the horse jumping fix, there are no jumps happening.

When I control the cav I smash the Poeni phalanx on contact at full charge (again, no jumping horses.) I am doing nothing fancy. I issue a single attack command at the start of battle, and the unit marches up then automatically charges at the right moment--no other input by me. The Poeni are in phalanx, and my stat tests show that they get a charge bonus vs. the cav, but the cav charge and mass is so high that it breaks through the spearwall on contact. The AI loses about 15-20 Poeni before the cav charge bonus stops.

Yes, we are both facing the same problem and we have a difference of interpretation, but my testing while both using and facing the phalanx suggests that the closest I am getting to fair and square match up is when I use the cav and not when I have the phalanc. And it seems to match how they behave in campaign mode.

P.S. I am going to try resetting the static charge distance to see if that fixes the cav AI charge behaviour. It could be that the AI is issuing a march order, then an attack, then maybe a charge order separately. The command delay would completely bugger their charge if this were true. By comparison I issue a single command and everything else is automatic.

EDIT: Tried increasing the charge distance out to 60 (vs. 40), the cav still marches up onto the pikes. No change in AI behaviour, so the AI is doing this intentionally. The battlefield AI really sucks--it doen't even fit THIS game's combat mechanics. The AI cav control is noticeably worse than the AI phalanx control in 1vs1. In multi unit mode the lack of cohesive phalanx use tips the scales heavily the other way, favoring cav.