Fixing Phalanx Behaviour

**Simetrical** · 02-23-2005, 04:10

I've definitely seen second rows of hoplites use their spears in hoplite-vs.-hoplite combat. Other than that, I can't say.

-Simetrical

**Red Harvest** · 02-23-2005, 04:41

Originally Posted by Simetrical

I've definitely seen second rows of hoplites use their spears in hoplite-vs.-hoplite combat. Other than that, I can't say.

-Simetrical

Funny you should mention that. Hoplite vs. hoplite things are holding up better. They really fight it out and stay in decent stand off for the most part. Thinks get vigorous when someone crosses inside the main kill zone.

**Kraxis** · 02-23-2005, 04:53

It is certain that all the points that protude from the formation can kill. It is just interesting that cavalry can somehow manage to punch through all 3-4 ranks and still survive only to die to a weaker sword a few seconds later (often that happens).
One gets the feeling that charging cavalry is the opposite of MTW where Spearunits in Hold Formation eliminated any cavalry charge head on. Now it seems that charging cavalry eliminated the phalanxability.

**hrvojej** · 02-23-2005, 04:55

Try this (after you have modified the mass):
- change the attack frequency and lethality of companions to something like 75, 0.73 or 100, 0.73
- leave the pike stats intact, but change the sword stats of a phalanx in the same way as mentioned above

I think this gives an improved result. If the second row of pikes won't fight, then we can make the first row fight more frequently than the opposition. If they get past that, the phalangites will fight like regular guys. And if all my units have 75, 073 while pikes have the lethality of 1 and are able to stab much faster, you bet that I'll think twice before charging anything into the front of the unmodded phalanx pikes.

**hrvojej** · 03-03-2005, 22:57

No, this. So far so good, as far as I'm concerned.

Try this (after you have modified the mass):
- change the attack frequency and lethality of companions to something like 75, 0.73 or 100, 0.73
- leave the pike stats intact, but change the sword stats of a phalanx in the same way as mentioned above

I think this gives an improved result. If the second row of pikes won't fight, then we can make the first row fight more frequently than the opposition. If they get past that, the phalangites will fight like regular guys. And if all my units have 75, 073 while pikes have the lethality of 1 and are able to stab much faster, you bet that I'll think twice before charging anything into the front of the unmodded phalanx pikes.

**Kraxis** · 03-03-2005, 23:13

I'm not certain what you mean...

Would you weaken the swords to be slower? Or am I intepreting the placement of the number wrongly?

**hrvojej** · 03-03-2005, 23:26

Not exactly. I would make them slower with respect to the pikes. In my case, I have slowed down the swords and decreased their lethality (I did this for all units to slow down the killrate - and it works nicely btw). However, I put the pikes at 50 speed (as opposed to 75 of evberybody else) and 1 lethality (as opposed to 0.73 of everybody else). So, (for the same stats) pikes are more effective weapons than any other in the game, including the secondary weapons of a phalanx. This simulates the rank effect (they stab faster and are more likely to cause a kill) without actually modifying the attack/defense stats. An example of weapon stats for phalanx pikemen:

Code:

stat_pri         8, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 50 ,1
stat_sec         5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 75 ,0.73

Of course, you could also just make pikes faster, so while everyone else is at 25, you could put them at 10 (and leave the lethality the same). I haven't tried this personally, since I wanted to slow things down in general, but it's a similar solution.

I'm not saying I found the answer, just that it seems quite a bit better to me.

**Kraxis** · 03-03-2005, 23:42

Ahhh I had mixed up the speed and the lethality. I haven't gotten lethality... how does it work? Not in a term of removing hitpoints I take it. Then every unit that faces a 0.73 units is in effect a 2HP unit.

Perhaps you are right and the speed should be lowered a bit for everything but the pikes and spears. Making it faster would be too fast for the animation it seems. I see the pikemen and hoplites stab all the time, so speeding up doesn't seem like an option.

**BeeSting** · 03-05-2005, 01:36

Agreed.... One major factor that's missing in this game is the rejecting an order to attack something out of complete fear.

I don't know.... does morale = fear? I think they are tied together somewhat but would like to think of them working differently in a person.

**Pode** · 02-23-2005, 04:56

Wish I could take the credit for finding it, Red. More than that, I wish I could give proper credit to the guy who did, but memory is failing in my old age ( or maybe

had something to do with it). I do remember him saying what tipped him to it was a unit of light horse frontally charging a phalanx downhill and taking zero casualties in the initial charge. He concluded that the spear doesn't really exist, only the one set of spear points, and the animations weren't up to positioning those points relative to local ground level. However, he did use this knowledge to document a nifty exploit. He strung a single or double line of archers just in FRONT of his phalanx line, inside their dead zone, set all units to stand ground, and the archers were able to fire at point blank range while the phalanx protected them. Kinda confirms that the second and third rows are just for looks.

**Red Harvest** · 02-25-2005, 04:47

Now that I have further test results, I will append them here.

1. Phalanx spears do get some sort of discounted kill rate on slopes. I do not know the formula, but they will kill. Unfortunately, with vanilla stats the effect is largely negligible. Hence, the indication of mounts charging though the spears with virtually no losses. Proof: try a very high primary attack or charge bonus, and they will kill quite a few on the initial charge.

2. The primary weapon phalanx charge bonus applies against the unit charging the pikes. EDIT: Nope, it doesn't--I've been retesting and the previous conclusive results have evaporated. Arrgggg... Scratch the phalanx charge bonus.

3. The primary weapon charge bonus does not apply when attacking out of phalanx.

4. And the secondary weapon charge bonus also does not seem to apply in this situation, despite the unit switching to swords. I used a value of 49 for a secondary charge bonus and in testing charging phalangites scored no kills vs. cav until melee was well established.

Conclusion: higher charge values for the primary attack seem to recommend themselves. The initial clash is less effective than it should be, but I am hesitant to increase the primary attack values since that might skew auto calc, unit recruitment by the AI, etc. However, the charge bonus boost applying only to the enemy charging it seems logical, particularly in light of the poor melee characteristics of the phalanx in the engine at present.

**conon394** · 02-25-2005, 05:59

Red
Have you implemented the revised version of the horse jump fix? It seems to reduce the cavalry penetration of the phalanx somewhat.

On the charge bonus, I tried setting my armored hoplites to 25 (PW charge bonus) and compared to the original stats. I can't really see any difference. What units are you using? I used Armenian Cat. Cav. attacking Greek armored hoplites.

**tai4ji2x** · 02-25-2005, 06:12

CA really just should have made it an attribute of cavalry units that they will get spooked when charging spears, and will have a high probabilty of simply turning around and refusing orders. only the most elite cavalry would have some amount of immunity to this.

**Red Harvest** · 02-25-2005, 06:54

Originally Posted by conon394

Red
Have you implemented the revised version of the horse jump fix? It seems to reduce the cavalry penetration of the phalanx somewhat.

On the charge bonus, I tried setting my armored hoplites to 25 (PW charge bonus) and compared to the original stats. I can't really see any difference. What units are you using? I used Armenian Cat. Cav. attacking Greek armored hoplites.

Yes, I've got the horse jump fix for 1.2. I've got a number of adjustments now, and I just did a quick check with +2 PW charge added for hoplite type spears, and +3 for long pikes. (But remember I also have upped mass for the phalanx, and I've given them +6 vs. horse/chariot/camel.) Initial test with a generals bodyguard gave some nice initial kills so initial impressions are favorable. I haven't tested the big cats yet. They have such high armour that they will probably still punch through the pikes rather easily. If one accepts the idea of them successfully charging the pikes, I don't have trouble with the concept of them winning in melee.

Honestly, with the way they have cav set up (with mass effects, and with the rapid penetration) the phalangites need some considerable bonuses specific to cav to have a chance. The heavy cav have very high armour stats.

I agree with tai4ji2x, that the cav need to do some sort of "TQ" (technical quality) check before charging pikes. If the pikes are disordered, then by all means, let them hammer away. Even if the cav unit is heavy and has fresh morale, it should be taking some massive morale penalties and offense penalties for being in front of the pikes. It would be nice to see the cav charges break at times without suffering the massive routing losses. Instead, it would be an intermediate "fallback and regroup" behaviour. They would essentially be out of player control until they regrouped at some distance from the pikes (or anything else that broke their charge, but didn't fully rout them.) Once they hit this safe distance they would attempt to rally. Sort of like a "skirmish mode." This could also allow "regroup and recharge" functionality.

Cavalry charges throughout history were frequently broken, but without utter destruction of the unit. That is more the norm than the exception. It is sort of a given, but they regroup and are able to pursue further commands--unless they are really low morale/green/or undisciplined...or if they are hotly pursued by other cav.

**Epistolary Richard** · 02-25-2005, 12:30

On the topic of controlling cavalry, many battles were lost because - after the initial charge - many generals couldn't stop their cavalry (and indeed their infantry) from chasing routers off the battlefield. There should be a similar kind of command check to halt a pursuit and bring them back under player control.