Pre-Marian army training

[Turin]

Okay, I realize that this topic has probably been discussed before, but I would like a definite answer. I imagine that at this stage in development, there should be one.

How will the principe and triarii be implemented? Are they just going to be trained straight up like all the other units, or will there be some promotion system to triarii or some type of mechanism to limit principe numbers (as only the upper class can become principe)?

I realize that this may fall under the catagory of classified information, but I think there needs to be a little public discussion about this issue. I mean, even if you all have a system figured out and implemented, it would still be good to share it with the public so that we can give our thoughts about it before the beta, or before any further progress is made in the wrong direction.

What about the equite? They were good, heavily armored cavalrymen. Really, the weakness of Roman cavalry lay in numbers as there were only so many citizens who could afford to be equite.

[khelvan]

The game mechanics do not allow for the development of a promotion system, nor would we want to use one. When the legion was gathered, the troops were separated into the various units immediately. This was not a system of serving for 5 years as a hastati and then being promoted to princeps. The troops were separated by wealth, age, and ability, in that order.

The hastati, principes, and triarii will be able to be built from the same barracks.

Native Roman cavalry was never very good. This is one of the reasons that by imperial times the Romans did not recruit cavalry anywhere in the peninsula. Allied cavalry was better, though still did not match up well with other cavalry of the age. The mod will reflect this.

[Lord Adherbal]

make sure you make the roman cavalry (equites and auxilia) much more expensive then cavalry of equal strength from other (more cavalry oriented) factions. Their infantry on the other hand should be cheaper.

I'm sure you are aware of this, but cost balance should be faction-based and not just based on unit stats :)

[khelvan]

Yes, we already decided on that. But you didn't have to tell me that here, and you could have read that for yourself. :)

[Turin]

khelvan, I agree that Roman cavalry was far from superior. But among other contemporary civilized cavalry forces, the Romans did not fare too badly. When Pyrrhus, with his Companion worthy cavalry, confronted the Roman cavalry, he was never immediately successful.

I mean, think about it. The Roman equite was a patrician who certainly knew how to handle a horse, and not just some farm horse. He was armored in mail or scale, had a wooden, iron rimmed shield, armed with a steel tipped spear. In the ancient world, equipment does not get better than this in terms of protection and flexibility. The Romans abandoned the idea of Italian cavalry during the Imperial era not because Italian cavalry was so overwhelmingly horrible, but because Germanic cavalry was a much better alternative.

Okay, back to the training point. If all three units are trained in the same barracks, then what is (besides cost) the incentive to train a mix of all three? Also, triarii were not just upperclass citizens who could afford the equipment, they were also veterans. One could immediately become a principe upon inception into the army, but to become a triarii, there had to be some experience. At least, that is how I understand it.

[khelvan]

We give stats based on equipment AND skill, so the equipment will be reflected in the strength of the unit.

The incentive to train any of the three is based on equipment and stats. The triarii were merely the oldest. This implied veterans because of the nature of the legion, but did not necessarily mean so. Polybius is quite clear on this, the Triarii were the oldest of those who were rich enough to make into the assault infantry.

[Sarcasm]

BTW, has the secondary weapon issue for the Triarii been solved? Are they are going to be a phalanx-type troop?

[khelvan]

Recent posts by Jerome Grasdyk in the main modding forum would seem to indicate it can be solved, but as of yet we have been unable to reproduce these results.

[Turin]

Something that I have been wondering about with the Pre-Marian army:

I think that the initial training cost for the maniple should be relatively low. Afterall, these were citizens who bought all their own equipment, it was just a matter of mustering the men.

It is my understanding that the Early Republican armies were not paid much, so their maintenance cost would mostly come from food. Of course, this all too simple a depiction.

I think there should be a major financial toll for the maintenance of all Early Republican legions. Why? Well, as has been shown with all citizen armies, the economy of the nation goes into a recession because of the missing consumers, producers, middlemen and such. The maintenance cost of the units should reflect this. The legions should be quick and fast to train but extremely expensive to maintain.

Later with the post-Marian units, the situation should be reversed. The legions should have a long training time and high training cost to reflect the intense training that all legionnaries received and the fact that the state paid for the equipment. Then the maintenance cost should just be the cost of supplies and salary. These men were professional soldiers. The economy has already accounted for them being absent, so their service in the army does not hamper the civilian economy.

[khelvan]

Some concessions must be made in the area of cost and maintenance to balance an entire unit list for the faction. Cost, maintenance, and build times are the ONLY factors we have to play with to try and make sure that both the AI and the player have incentive to create a balanced mix of armies. We can't try solely to be realistic in terms of the relative cost and maintenance of individual units, as then little incentive would be present to build some units, and little incentive to build anything else for others.

Thank you for your suggestion!

[Turin]

Actually, if you follow the original model I described, players will be motivated to train and use their armies in a realistic fashion. Republican armies were called up on relatively short notice, they were disbanded with equal haste. Making the recruiting times and costs low and the maintenance cost high induces players to train large armies quickly and then disband them after use before they go bankrupt.

Of course this is with the Republican army. Imperial armies will train slow but cost less to maintain. This way the player will value his cohorts and keep them safe and keep them around indefinitely.

[khelvan]

Ok, let me tackle this in another fashion: There are very few variables that we can play with in order to ensure that units appear (and function) on the battlefield in a realistic manner. In addition, the economy and the cost/build time of units are closely intertwined. We need to look at all of these things on a macro scale, to play with the numbers in order to get desired results. Looking at any particular area, such as the relative cost and maintenance values of certain units in history, is taking it as if it were in a vaccuum. While the values may end up being historical, the results will not.

We are doing our best to ensure that the entire economy, overall unit balance, and individual unit representations are as historical and realistic as possible. We cannot do this from the unit level up. It is necessary to do this from the economy level down. Which means that the overall economy and unit balance will be more realistic when you look at it than individual costs and build times, where a sacrifice is necessary.

[jimmyM]

Could the game mechanics allow the creation of "bundle armies" that have a pre-determined proportion of units making them up - e.g. in the recruitment scroll there is one icon for "pre-marian field army" that includes 3 of each line and some supporting cavalry and light troops (or somesuch) allowing the a.i to produce balanced armies? i'm not sure if this mechanic is hardcoded or if it's possible to create more than one unit per "slot" in the build que.
I have no real knowledge of modding so...there we are, the idea had been bugging me for some time and I needed someone in the know to kill it stone dead .

[ah_dut]

Mate...to my knowledge, there is no way to do that

[khelvan]

Not possible, unfortunately.

[jimmyM]

Gah! oh well...

[Ano2]

I understand where you are coming from about Pre-Marian troops being cheap since they provide their own equiptment, however most other nations used a similar method of recruitment (The Marius reform was something of a landmark). If anything the Roman's would cost slightly more to recruit than ,say, the Gauls due to the training.