Reinforcements delayed?

[Jacque Schtrapp]

I'm playing as the Brutii in my first post patch campaign. It's 142 BC and the civil war is under way. I've kicked the Scipii out of Europe entirely (which is amusing because they have twice as many troops as I do, they're all milling around Carthage unable to run my blockade) and am holding the line from Arretium to Ariminum against the Julii. My primary army is attacked by two to three full stacks every turn and every turn I face only one army and get the "Reinforcements Delayed?" message. I even delay the battle by making the Julii come all the way across the map and when they are on the run I chase down every last soldier in the hopes that the other army will arrive before the battle ends. Never happens. Is this some post patch snafu? In the past I almost never got that message and now, post patch, I get it every single time there are more than one opposing armies facing me. It sucks since with the AI's seriously retarded tactics it takes two and three armies to provide a challenge. Anyone else experience this?

[Quietus]

Reinforcements are always delayed for the enemy. Usually, the battle is already finished before they arrive. (For reference, I play on VH/VH).

I've seen some delayed enemy reinforcements that actually arrived. But the enemy is already routing.

1) There's probably a fixed time in which they are cued-in to arrive (when delayed), but the battle is normally over before that time arrives.

2) There is probably a special ratio that when exceeded, the enemy gets a delayed reinforcement.

I've fought a ~3000 vs ~3000 siege battle (I was the attacker) and the enemy reinforcement arrived (~400). They were delayed though, but they arrived.

[Kaldhore]

Woa I just came online to post about "Delayed reinforcements" nicely weird.

But my experience I just had was slighty different.

I sent an army to help one of my cities sally forth. Both were only about 1600 men (on huge) but the enemy (egyptians) numbered 3200 + a nearby army of 1000.

I get into battle and I get the message "Delayed reinforcements" I click on it and it tells me that although they are delayed I fight alongside the best soldiers and not to worry, but that I wouldnt be getting any reinforcements this day.

Oh....Damn.

About 4k enemy and 1550 - all phalanx - my greek normal hoplites(my cav were in the other army).

Okaaay.... So I get down to some serious defence formations (Phalanx triangle) and they just form before the chariots hit me. then the arrows start to cut me down. then the javs....It seems overwelming. Eventually I think this aint gonna work - should I withdraw??

Then a huge line of Greek coloured banners appeared on the horizon and the map. I get the message " Your Reinforcements finally join the battle" !!! ( it told me I wouldnt get any !) And not only that but I was on a smallish map and they appeared right behind the main body of the enemy. 5 more units of phalanx Armoured hoplites, LOADs of cav and some creten archers w000t.

needless to say - the enemy begain to chain rout and I launched both sides of my forces into a chase - ending in an Greek egyptian Greek sandwich.

Bloody Marvelous.

[AntiochusIII]

Does it has anything to do with the number of your forces in the battlefield, like Shogun and Medieval?

Like, less chance for reinforcement for larger armies?

[professorspatula]

I find my army is typically the one who's reinforcements are delayed nearly every time. I had 4 armies attacked by 3 armies of the senate. I get 1 army on the map, they get 3. Somehow my initial army survived long enough for the reinforcements to finally arrive and finish off the senate.

I think the number of men involved in the battle and the chances of reinforcements being delayed are related. If all 7 armies were fighting at once, I'd have over 13,000 men killing each other. No way my PC can handle that. Just about every battle I've had with reinforcements that bring the number of men involved to over 5000-6000 has a great chance of the reinforcements being delayed. Perhaps the number of units (and not the individual men in the unit) involved in the battle is the key though. I don't know. I very much imagine I'll never have a battle with 10,000+ men all fighting at once though, reinforcements will be delayed I can almost certainly guarantee.

I also wonder if the attacker's reinforcements are more or less likely to show up than the defender's or whether its random or based on something else entirely.

[A.Saturnus]

I had battles with three enemy armies while none was delayed, though that were rather small armies. Did this happen to anyone when the number of men that would normally join battle is not to large? If the answer is no then we have a likely answer: the game delays armies in order to get below a limit of men on the field.
In that case, could anyone with a pretty strong PC try out setting "UNLIMITED_MEN_ON_BATTLEFIELD" in preference.txt on TRUE to test it?

[professorspatula]

Another thing I noticed which may or may not be related: When there were masses of reinforcements all delayed, the first lot of reinforcements only showed up when a large number of people had been killed. The second army of reinforcements showed up when the battle was practically over. The other 2 armies never showed up at all, nor in the following battle. In smaller fights when the reinforcements are delayed, sometimes they show up within a minute or two of the battle.

[Quietus]

I had battles with three enemy armies while none was delayed, though that were rather small armies. Did this happen to anyone when the number of men that would normally join battle is not to large? If the answer is no then we have a likely answer: the game delays armies in order to get below a limit of men on the field.

Yes. They always get the reinforcement their total will only amount to about a stack. I had a battle when the smaller enemy stack attacked and a much larger stack was the delayed reinforcement. It seems to me the computer is preserving a ratio where the enemy won't overwhelm the player.

In that case, could anyone with a pretty strong PC try out setting "UNLIMITED_MEN_ON_BATTLEFIELD" in preference.txt on TRUE to test it?

No super computer here, but I'll test it nonetheless . I hope you are right (this will make for interesting battle scenarios).

[professorspatula]

It seems to me the computer is preserving a ratio where the enemy won't overwhelm the player.

Well the computer sent 4,500 men (3 armies) against my single army of 2,379, delaying all my 6800 reinforcements, and to cap it off, one of their reinforcement armies came from behind, thus a slaughter was in order. I was certainly overwhelmed. Although in an epic battle I did pretty well I thought. The AI certainly wasn't preserving some kind of 'play-fair' ratio towards me.

Also, I just had a siege battle against the Scipii. 9,100+ men against 1,942 of their's. As all four of my armies had siege equipment, everyone started in the battle (no delayed reinforcements rubbish). It's also the last siege battle I will probably play on a large scale, not just because of speed issues, but because my AI friends used just 1 piece of their siege equipment between them and let themselves get slaughtered whilst they messed around with the rest of their siege equipment in front of towers for the entire battle. Unbelievable. It was the worst display of shockingly poor AI I think I've ever witnessed in a computer game. I felt like either crying in disbelief or smashing the computer in frustration. Or both. It didn't help my annoyance level when my spear warband decided to use swords whenever I asked them to attack even when in phalanx formation and in a nice line. I'm sure I saw a smug grin on the faces of the enemy cavalry as they sliced through my idiots.

[Quietus]

Well the computer sent 4,500 men (3 armies) against my single army of 2,379, delaying all my 6800 reinforcements, and to cap it off, one of their reinforcement armies came from behind, thus a slaughter was in order. I was certainly overwhelmed. Although in an epic battle I did pretty well I thought. The AI certainly wasn't preserving some kind of 'play-fair' ratio towards me.

Ohh. Well, I never let the AI control my armies (that's why it is probably attenuating its attacks). Do you still have that game? Can you reload and see if there is a difference when you let the AI fight or not fight for you?

Also, does that mean, 3 armies attacked you at the same time while you only had one to begin with? I've just changed the preference to "unlimited" men but had no chance to test it yet.

Also, I just had a siege battle against the Scipii. 9,100+ men against 1,942 of their's. As all four of my armies had siege equipment, everyone started in the battle (no delayed reinforcements rubbish). It's also the last siege battle I will probably play on a large scale, not just because of speed issues, but because my AI friends used just 1 piece of their siege equipment between them and let themselves get slaughtered whilst they messed around with the rest of their siege equipment in front of towers for the entire battle.

Pretty much the AI can't siege. I won't even hand them control in the open field. They are just bad. I just fought a 2063 vs. 471 siege battle against the Scipii (I was the attacker) and the computer gave me 23 minutes. Barely beat the thing. 1,942 is doable with trickle-reinforcements and LOTS of time.

For this one, I was thinking of just sapping and rushing since his two hastati/principes were at the walls. But was leery of those arrow towers, they really panic your units and cause mass rout. And he only had two auxilla units in the streets and his war dog was at the town square. I just played it safe.

I'm having a blast with the sieges.

[hung41584]

uhh i think it has something to do with how many "fast" units in your reinforcing army. Like if it contains a lot of cavalry, then the reinforcements will get there asap. I think if you compare the enemy army to your reinforcement army, you will know if the reinforcements will arrive. I know generals make sure your whole army arrive together, while armies without one tend to arrive seperately.

Also, you can get more than a full army stack into battle just by letting the ai control your reinforcements. I think some of you had your reinforcements delayed because you were already at your limit(the number of men you can control). Just make sure that ai controlled box is checked before you go into battle and you'll see surprisingly LARGE uneven battles.

I found this out when I kept seeing how the ai sent in reinforcements even though they were over their limit. I thought they would have to wait before the other large army came in, but I was surprised to see like 5000 units against my 2500 units. If you want your reinforcements to come in, let the ai control it.

[professorspatula]

I don't know if that message was replying to mine, it's difficult to know with these forums. But anyway, I let the AI control all my reinforcements. It's an experimental/role playing campaign where I have so many units, I'm not too fussed over how many survive, so I let the AI throw away my units at will. I wish it wouldn't throw all my poor Night Raiders away though. The AI's stupidity during the 'Siege of A Thousand Idiocies' as I now call it, was the last straw however. I'll auto-calc any siege that uses AI reinforcements. If the AI can't even figure out how to use more than 1 piece of siege equipment when it has several, then there is no point in ever playing the battles.

I'm also not convinced by the 'number of fast units determines chances of reinforcements showing up'. When the AI reinforcements has onagers which slows down the entire army, surely that offsets any fast unit status?

[A.Saturnus]

Also, you can get more than a full army stack into battle just by letting the ai control your reinforcements. I think some of you had your reinforcements delayed because you were already at your limit(the number of men you can control). Just make sure that ai controlled box is checked before you go into battle and you'll see surprisingly LARGE uneven battles.

Sure but that´s not what we´re talking about here. If you don´t check the AI controlled box, your reinforcements join your army when slots are free. When that happens, you get the "reinforcements arrived" message, but you get no message while your reinforcements are waiting. When AI controlled other armies don´t appear, you get the "reinforcements delayed" message. They can arrive later but do not become part of your army. This can also happen to your foe.

[Quietus]

I did the "unlimited" change. So far, I got a single unit reinforcement immediately, though the unit didn't cross the line until one of mine routed since I checked off the AI-controller box (and I had 20 originally).

The enemy reinforcement also didn't get any delay, although their main army wasn't full stack in the first place. So far, Saturnus' hypothesis looks promising.

[bobderfisch]

Not sure how much it's relevant, but the file "event_strings" contains the text for the various "reinforcements delayed" messages, and they are under the header {your_machine_needs_upgrading_body_*}, where * is your culture type.

Is it really performance based or was someone just being cute? Who knows...

[hung41584]

i just got that delayed thing today, it was two stacks of about 1700 for me and for the ai. in the battle we both had delayed armies. then right before the big clash between both sides, their reinforcements arrived. just after the battle started going in my favour, my reinforcements arrived.