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  1. #1
    MOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member Idomeneas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The hoplite issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City
    If they used an even smaller shield that the Iphicratean one (which was already small) then why would they need to strap it to their neck?
    The argive shield as it was said before weighted about 8 or more kilos (the whole armor and weapons 30) it was supported by arm and shoulder
    (thats why there was the rim). Iphikrates introduced not a reformed hoplite but a new unit. Something between the staying power of hoplites and mobility of peltastes. They were something like reformed ekdromoi. Boots were introduced for first time to increace mobility, smaller shield without rim, longer spear so it would strike from safe distance the heavier hoplites, linothorax or leather armour, thracian helmet for better view and hearing. They became very popular after they defeated spartan ''mores'' more than one time. Some say that Phillipos took the idea of phalangites from them. They had even longer spear 6-9 meters smaller shield supported by hand and a neck strap. If anybody here being in army will know how tiring can be to hold something even as light as 3 kilos by hand for too much time.
    μηνιν αειδε θεα Πηληιαδεω Αχιληοs ουλομενην

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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: The hoplite issue...

    My point exactly.



    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

    -- Oscar Wilde

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    Default Re: The hoplite issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Idomeneas
    If anybody here being in army will know how tiring can be to hold something even as light as 3 kilos by hand for too much time.
    In that case how exactly do you explain classical hoplites holding their 8kg shields with one hand for extended period of times?

    Either you have a small shield that can be tied to your forearm (which would make neck straps superfluous) or you have a 60-75 cm shield that does need a neckstrap.

    Cataphract Of The City

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    MOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member Idomeneas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The hoplite issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City
    In that case how exactly do you explain classical hoplites holding their 8kg shields with one hand for extended period of times?

    Either you have a small shield that can be tied to your forearm (which would make neck straps superfluous) or you have a 60-75 cm shield that does need a neckstrap.
    The argive shield as I said before had the rim exactly for supporting the extra weight on shoulder. The weight was making the first piece that a soldier running away would drop. From there comes the insulting characterization ''Ripsaspis (Ριψάσπις)''= shield dropper. You can also see an example of how soldiers complained about its weight in Xenofon when leading a unit uphill shouted to a soldier who was slow and he responded that its easy for him to say cause he is on horse back and carries no shield. Offcourse then Xenofon dismounted took the shield from him and started walking fast uphill until the insults of the whole unit forced the lazy soldier to take back the shield.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Hakonarson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The hoplite issue...

    Iphicrates almsot certainly reformed his peltasts to make them "cheap" hoplites - a mercenary peltast was paid only half the rate of a hoplite IIRC!

    His defeat of the Spartans outside corinth was not achieved by these new troops, but by tradisional peltasts throwing javelins.

    the later presence of "Peltasts" as elite pikemen in the Macedonian army defeated at Pydna is probably nothing more than a bit of typical military naming history - the British army still has "Fusileers", who do not use the Fusil, the American Army has "Rangers", who are not frontier scouts, etc - military names can sometimes have little or no bearing on the nature of the unit that carries them!

    Possibly the later Peltasts became elite by way of mercenary peltasts beign an elite in eth army, then the guard troops adopting their name - but that's just supposition on my part.

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