Poll: Ireland or Scotland?

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Thread: Ireland v Scotland

  1. #31
    King of Macedon Member themonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    ireland help gameplay for sure
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  2. #32
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Yes! Supporters....
    Just after I post it looks like Irelands winning again
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Don't be too sure! I think there may be a swamp of Scottish voters!

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  4. #34
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Tied again, wow. Everyone I may not have a very regular schedule for getting on this weekend, because I will not be home, but I should be able to get on the forum.
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  5. #35

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Now it is in favour of Scotland! At last people with sense!

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  6. #36
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Alba gu Brath! Let the Scots win! 11-10, keep the votes coming!
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  7. #37
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    The vote count keeps changing now Ireland would be the better choice I think for gameplay reasons.
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  8. #38
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Just as a note to everyone if the vote is very close I will want to hear arguments from everyone and if people do not mind make the final decision, because one or two votes that could be from people outside of the team should not decde something like this. But, I will definately take into account which side ends up with the majority and if it is 3 or more then it is a decisive vote and i will back it.
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  9. #39

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Have Scotland! (A) It was a solid storng kingdom. (B) It had developed some Renaissance culture. (C) To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border. (D) It will use some English models so we don't reach the limit. (E) It will present a realistic challenge to England, facing both Frnace and Scotland. (F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.

    Well?

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  10. #40
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border.
    Remember we cant construct some imaniganable mountains because we are trying to be as historical as possible.

    (A) It was a solid storng kingdom
    Ireland wasn't a strong kingdom so that will make it more challenging to unite the squabbling tribes and forge an empire out of them.

    (F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.
    Well then the english could destroy them if they have smaller armies, england will be able to support more troops than scotland because it is more fertile and giving the Scottish a unique spearmen unit might be a bit ahistorical and would unbalance the game later on.
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  11. #41
    Altogether quite not there! Member GodsPetMonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoramus
    Have Scotland! (A) It was a solid storng kingdom. (B) It had developed some Renaissance culture. (C) To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border. (D) It will use some English models so we don't reach the limit. (E) It will present a realistic challenge to England, facing both Frnace and Scotland. (F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.

    Well?
    (A) and (B) are good points.

    I think some fantasy barrier is a silly way to fix the problem (though a England vs Scotland show down is as inevatible as a England v France in MTW, but I think it would be the same if we had Ireland). Luckily there are a few real geograhic elements that help (check a map of the scottish lowlands and borders with england!)

    (E) is another very good point, and one I am quite fond of! The bulk of the scotish armies will be very similar to the english, only a few unique highland units to add.


    I think some people are underestimating the defencive position that Scotland has. Concentrating your defencive forces in the south can quite effectively block off an English assualt, and as the English would start off at war with France (this is during the later half of the 100 years war remember) they will be adaquetly distracted.

    I think the Irish are the poor cousins for both historical and gameplay reasons, historically they were not important in this time period, political unity is questionable, and while I think that Scotland is to far removed from the real action (and thats why I think another european faction should be considered) the Irish are even further removed.
    And the case for it being the 'challenge' faction, I should think that Scotland is as tough a position in the way of expansion, the real challenge factions would be ones like the Moors, who are really on the back foot against Spain. Central europe will also become rather interesting VERY fast, hemmed in all arround with powerful and emerging neighbours. Want to be stuck between some angry turks and frenchmen?
    The only gameplay + for Ireland is all those with Irish ancestry can finally stick it to the english in a virtual world
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  12. #42
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    The only gameplay + for Ireland is all those with Irish ancestry can finally stick it to the english in a virtual world
    Yeah kill the english!!!!! Whoops I'd have to kill my cousins as well dont want to do that......

    Maybe Ireland is a poor choice then for reasons stated by Godspetmonkey but is there another european faction that could be added? Maybe better than both scotland and Ireland? Anyway I thought it might be better to have Ireland because of the english and scottish killing each other off at an early stage so you never get to fight one of the factions because one wins all the time.
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    I think we need to have Scotland because otherwise England will become like the Briotns in RTW. They build up a large navy and nobody touches them. the AI doesn't usually attack by sea, so this way it would stop England dominating. Also, weren't there rivers near the Anglo-Scottish border? Anyway, it is silly to include Ireland. This is a RENAISSANCE Mod, and since the Irish were still quite Medieval in their culture, it just wouldn't make sense with the rest of the Mod. Also, I relish the opportunity of having to play Scotland, who if it hadn't have been for family ties in the Monarchy, and the Act of Union, would still be independent. Otherwise England would invade France and do what the Britons in RTW do, expand into Germany and France, this way, the English would have to fight Scotland first. Scotland, wouldn't be able to smash England either, because of superior English armies. England wouldn't be easily able to smash Scotland either, as we could make Scottish territories have like +50% unrest to really explain the fierce Scottish sense of identity, unity, and idependence from foreign rule. That is why many Scots flocked to the Jacobite uprisings, many disliked English or British rule over them, and simply wished to throw off the yoke.

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  14. #44
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Well it looks like Scotland has won.

    Some very good arguments have been given and I think we should have Scotland instead of Ireland, even though I still think playing Ireland would make my top 10 gaming moments of all time. We can do that in Fuedal f we get there.

    Unless there is a sudden appearance of strong backing for Ireland I think Scoltand is the way to go.
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  15. #45
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Yes maybe scotland is better but there is only one way for scotland to expand and that is down through england.
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  16. #46

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Excellent! I'm glad my arguments won the day for Scotland!

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  17. #47
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    I was more swayed by Godspetmonkey's arguments...

    Anyway I was pointing out that Scotland HAS to expand through england there is no other way and most always one of them is either going to win or keep wearing each other down and stay small countries and so make Scotland a waste of TWO factions....
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  18. #48
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Well you never know, Ireland could still win. Saranalos are you still loyal to Irelnd? If you are could you re-post your arguments so we get both sides of the debate?
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  19. #49

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    I will post my arguments for Ireland, however, I still want Scotland.

    Ireland is good because. (A) They have the Irish Sea seperating them from England. (B) It may be a bit of a struggle for them.

    However, the last thing we want, is Ireland to get ELIMINATED by Rebels! If you make large Reble armies in Ireland, while Ireland only has small ones, Ireland, when played by th AI, is going to get thumped! At least Scotland will have the Orkney Islands to retreat to. Also, England owned half of Ireland anyway, so to be accurate would have to give England one province, who would blitz the Irish. Also, thanks GodsPetMonkey for your arguments!

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  20. #50
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Yes I am still loyal to Ireland

    1.) Ireland is not above England like scotland and it can expand into france, wheras Scotland will only expand downwards if possible.

    2.) If we have England and scotland there is going to be bloodshed within the first 5 years and one of them is going to lose all the time, If we balance them a bit more, then scotland will probably manage to hold out but probably wont be able to expand through england and the English will weaken themselves so much that they wont expand at all.

    3.) Ireland is a different Island not joined together like Scotland and England and I think it would add more diversity to the game.

    4.) My argument is for gameplay reasons not patriotic or biased because I live there but because I think it would be best for the game and it wouldnt waste two factions like scotland would.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    In answer to your arguments:

    1.) Not all the factions HAVE to expand, it would be a tug-of-war for mainland Britain. Also, Ireland is silly, beause they would become fully fledged naval power, which is both ahistorical and bad for gameplay.

    2.) That's both realistic and fun! Having the AI slog it out against each with no succes is quite historical. Also, Scotland could expand east to Scandinavia. England would be able to expand west into Ireland, and maybe into France.

    3.) It may add more diversity, but in the bd sense. England would have no oppositon in the British mainland and would then with no early expensive war, invade everyone like the Britons in Rtw.

    4.) Soctland would enhance England, not the other way around!

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  22. #52
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    In answer to your questions.

    They should expand and having two AI opponents slog it out just reduces the number of opponents you will have to face. Saying that if Ireland has a big navy its ahistorical is not a good argument because in reality England didnt have enough army's to conquer europe but in the game it's possible. And Ireland would only dominate the north seas where england would have a big navy and dominate as well.

    I dont think they would invade everyone I was playing the game and I was about 50 years into the game before England attacked anyone but when it did it won so I had a bit of opposition from them with them attacking me every year so although they were smaller than me their chariots kept devastating my armies.

    I think Scotland would just keep England in England allowing no expansion unless played a human player.
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  23. #53

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    For a start, it doesn't mean they won't expand. It just means England won't expand into Scotland and vice versa.

    The Britons in RtW show this, with no oppositon, they just bash up everybody.

    More disadvantages: Ireland wasm't united, So it would have ONE province. It couldn't have all that big an arm!y, or they would go broke. Now, if Ireland was played by the AI, they wouldn't even have resources to expand in Ireland itself. I can understand Irishmen wanting Ireland in the Mod. However, I am not from Scotland, the reason I want Scotland is tht I am a historian, and I think it would be absurd if you have Ireland over Scotland!

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  24. #54
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    You have done a good job in the debate Ignoramus, we can have this going for a bit longer and if you keep coming up with good replies to our doubts it will probably turn to Scotland.

    Ireland was extremely fertile and rebels do not build up their armies so even though Ireland would start off surrounded by strong rebeles Ireland could build up a strong enough army to take a province and then so on continually beating back the rebels until Ireland is fully AI or player controlled.

    The AI does not often attack overseas. England would only have a running war with France if we implemented a land bridge between Calais. We could do this, but I think it would make England too accessible to France and end up with England being restricted by Scotland, France beating down England and France then taking out Scoltand. How is that for ahistorical? (I think that would happen every time pretty much)

    I do not think Scotland would go into Scandinavia, naval attack with armies. Almost never done by AI. Also Ahistorical.

    Having the Irish faction be one family/clan is not all that ahistorical is it? In the end if we upped the rebelliousness of Ireland we would end up with a land prone to rebellion that did not have enough resources left over from fighting rebellion to expand outward, however, it would have enough to play foil to England. More historically represents the loose connection that was sometimes maintained between the Irish lords.

    We could also make Scotland prone to rebellion and not give it a faction, it would not attack England and thus not reduce England too mmuch but it would make it hard for England to take and keep large tracts of French land.
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  25. #55
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Ireland v Scotland

    one must consider the role of scotland and ireland in 15-18 centuries europe and then the choice is very clear
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  26. #56
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoramus
    I can understand Irishmen wanting Ireland in the Mod. However, I am not from Scotland, the reason I want Scotland is tht I am a historian, and I think it would be absurd if you have Ireland over Scotland!
    Quote Originally Posted by Saranalos
    4.) My argument is for gameplay reasons not patriotic or biased because I live there but because I think it would be best for the game and it wouldnt waste two factions like scotland would.
    You should have read my post properly. You see I think that scotland wont be able to expand and will just sit there occasionally attacking in small numbers and just be a waste.

    I would rather have some european faction instead of Ireland or Scotland but since we are choosing between these two I choose Ireland because I think it would be better for gameplay.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    I know, I was just thinking, that we need some barrier for England. All the other factions like France would have maybe even 4! factions surrounding them. However, I would like Scotland if we had to choose betweem Ireland and Scotland. However, if the choice was a european faction I would have to press for Bavaria. Why, because at the start and end of this Mod, and before the Thirt Years War, Bavaria was one of the largest and most powerful of the German states. Also, if we have Saxony, which most people want, It would stop us from doing two veryy ahistorical things, The first things is to give Saxony more territory than they historically had, to compensate for only one German state. The second thing, would be to accurately give Saxony its territory, but that would mean, Austria, Milan, and Burgandy, would quickly snap up the Rebel territories.
    If it is between Ireland and Scotland I'd say Scotland. If it is another European faction which I hope is the case, then Bavaria would DEFINATELY be my choice. It would make this mod unique from other mods, as we would be displating the disunity of Europe during this period.

    Saranalos: Sorry if in any way I misread your post.

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  28. #58
    me :) Member Saranalos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    It's okay it just annoyed me that you seemed to say that I was choosing Ireland because I live there after specifically stating that I wasnt doing that....

    I just dont think Scotland when controlled by the AI will have any way to expand except through England. I would think that Ireland can attack France as easily as it can attack England and would lead to more intresting gameplay.
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  29. #59
    Vermonter and Seperatist Member Uesugi Kenshin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    I do not think we should have 3 german factions. I think we should choose the two best german factions for the time period and not talk about a third anymore. We need more variety than that.
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  30. #60
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ireland v Scotland

    Ignoramus is right, the Anglo-Scottish border is made up of, more or less, the rivers tweed and solway and theri tributaries. Vive l'Ecosse.
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